Alan Butler from the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) joins Alan Chapell to discuss EPICs recent blog post critiquing the March 2025 decision of the French competition authority holding that Apple's App Tracking Transparency (ATT) is anti-competitive. This is a robust discussion pitting the views of the advocacy community against those of the business community... and demonstrating the tension that can sometimes exist between privacy and competition law.  The discussion referenced a number of articles and consumer research. Epic's blog post on ATT is at https://tinyurl.com/2avfss69 The French Competition decision is at https://tinyurl.com/27tav2dv Research from Columbia Univ is at https://tinyurl.com/399az6ht Research from USC is at https://tinyurl.com/55d76n87 Takeaways EPIC saw Apple’s App Tracking Transparency (ATT) as a rare, meaningful win for user privacy amid decades of unchecked data collection. Alan Butler draws a distinction as between first-party tracking and third-party behavioral tracking - a distinction that may be at odds with competition regulators such as the UK Competition and Markets Authority. Butler argued that consent pop-ups and CMPs are manipulative, not genuine privacy controls - Chapell agreed, but noted that Apple uses its own form of manipulation with ATT. European regulators viewed ATT as anti-competitive, but Butler said ATT rightly prioritizes user privacy over ad-tech interests. Chapell provided research suggesting that Apple's cohort tracking might not be as user-friendly as some advocates have suggested. Apple’s ad revenue growth in the wake of ATT raised competition and fairness concerns. Butler called for ad models that allow publisher sustainability without compromising user privacy. Chapters00:00 Introduction and EPIC’s role in privacy advocacy02:30 Apple’s App Tracking Transparency explained04:45 Ad-tech backlash and regulatory scrutiny in Europe06:15 First-party vs. third-party data use distinctions09:50 How tracking and profiling differ across contexts12:40 Consent mechanisms and why they fail users15:50 The “double consent” debate under EU law20:00 Competition concerns and privacy as a design choice24:30 Publisher monetization and skepticism of tracking’s value28:00 Intersection of privacy, competition, and market power31:30 Consumer understanding of ATT and tracking preferences34:00 Apple’s data use and the question of transparency37:00 Whether ATT unfairly advantages Apple41:00 Broader implications for competition and privacy balance45:30 Parity between ATT and consent systems discussed48:30 Closing reflections on privacy, fairness, and user control   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices