We are delighted to have the great Koreen Pagano join the podcast for the furthering conversation on skills. We get Koreen’s perspective and definition of skills.  Matt alludes to the earlier LDA Podcast, The “What the Skills” Episode with Paul Kirschner, as well as the research work he did with John Sweller and Richard Clark published in their article: Kirschner, P.A., Sweller, J., & Clark, R.E. (2006). Why minimal guidance during instruction does not work: An analysis of the failure of constructivist discovery, problem-based, experiential, and inquiry-based teaching. Educational Psychologist. 41(2), 75-86. In the episode, we dig into whether one can teach, and how one can teach, conflict resolution, critical thinking, and even tease the subject of teaching leadership. The debate really gets playfully heated when they talk about critical thinking. Clark uses the famous phrase, “yes… and…” Matt references the great improv in business practitioner, Kat Koppett. Her first book, Training to Imagine is a great source to go into yes, anding… in more depth. Matt references evolutionary skills and brings up the references from Sweller: Sweller, J. (2016). Cognitive Load Theory: What We Learn and How We Learn. In M. Spector, B. Lockee, & M. Childress (Eds.), Learning, design, and technology (pp. 1–28). Springer. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-17727-4_50-1 And Geary Geary, D. C. (2008). An evolutionarily informed education science. Educational Psychologist, 43(4), 179–195. https://doi.org/10.1080/00461520802392133 We discuss what it means to master skills, and develop automation. We also explore how to assess whether a person has a skill or the potential to develop a skill. We debate transferability and whether skills— especially complex skills need be taught within a contextual domain. Matt argues yes. Koreen argues no. Clark argues “It depends.” They also debate whether, and how much, talent plays into skill development. Heck… is talent even a thing? The big argument centers around Carnegie Hall and playing golf! And of course, Anders Ericsson is a part of the conversation. Ericsson, K. A., & Charness, N. (1994). Expert performance: Its structure and acquisition. American Psychologist, 49: 725–747. Matt referenced the Human Development expert, Richard Lerner. Koreen references the hostage negotiator, Chris Voss and his book, Never Split the Difference. And we even debate how transferrable the skill of game design is! And we talked about so much more!!! Of course, we run out of time because we had so much fun chatting with Koreen… that we didn’t get to Best and Worst! Next time… and Koreen will be back! More about Koreen: Koreen Pagano, Chief Product Officer at Thrive Learning and founder of Isanno, is a globally recognized product executive with deep expertise in learning technologies, skills strategy, AI, analytics, and immersive technologies. Koreen has held product leadership roles at companies including Lynda.com, LinkedIn, D2L, Degreed, and Wiley. Koreen previously founded Tandem Learning in 2008, where she pioneered immersive learning through virtual worlds, games, and simulations. She has taught graduate courses at Harrisburg University and provided advisory and consulting services to a range of tech companies in the corporate learning, VR, and K12 education markets. Koreen is a seasoned international speaker, author of the book Immersive Learning and an upcoming book on organizational skills transformation due out in 2025. You can find Koreen here: https://isanno.com  https://www.linkedin.com/in/koreenpagano/