We are joined by Ali Hall and Dr. Dawn Llewellyn to discuss the perceptions of childfree and childless individuals. We explore the challenges of visibility and the need for more nuanced language. The conversation addresses the divide between the childfree and childless communities, the importance of creating safe spaces, and the complexities of aging without children. The episode emphasises empathy, understanding, and debates unity as a means of advocating for non-parents. Dawn is an Associate Professor of Religion and Gender at the University of Chester, where she has been based since 2010.  Dawn has been researching, publishing, and speaking publicly about pronatalism for over 12 years, in particular examining how religion constructs ideas about motherhood and childlessness. Her latest book (contracted with Bloomsbury, should be finished by the end of this year!) focuses on how Christian women understand and manage their reproductive agency and choice. As co-founder of Storyhouse Childless, one of her aims has been to disrupt the binaries and divisions that pronatalism creates, to raise awareness of the many different experiences of childlessness, and to create opportunities for community and connection.  Ali Hall is the person behind the Childfree by Choice Twitter account, an account set up to help remove the stigma of being childfree by choice and showcase that you can feel deep love, happiness & fulfilment without being a parent. She is also a writer and can be found on Medium and Substack and has written 30+ articles on the non-parent experience, from the lived experience of being childfree while being mindful and inclusive of those who are childless. Ali is passionate about bridging the gap between parents, the childfree and the childfree. When not advocating for non-parents, she is happiest running on trails with her dogs or floating on the waves in her kayak.