In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I’m joined by Bob Sutton, organizational psychologist and New York Times bestselling author of several influential books on leadership, behavior, and workplace culture, including his latest: The Friction Project.

We explore insights from across his body of work, including real-world examples of large organizations that have figured out how to operate more effectively and ethically—despite the inherent messiness of human systems.

We discuss:

• Ideas from The Knowing-Doing Gap, including the importance of psychological safety and a breakdown of “the smart talk trap”

• Why even the best-run companies are still flawed

• The surprising number of companies owned by private foundations, including Hershey Chocolate and Ikea

• How well-run organizations resist management fads while staying open to real innovation

• A story from Tim Cook about critical thinking in HR—and the cost of over-hiring

• “Addition sickness”: what happens when too many people work on a problem

• Strategies for removing friction

• The “No Asshole Rule”: why toxic leaders damage performance and morale

• The best founders strike the right balance between confidence and humility 

•  And much more!

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Where to find Bob Sutton: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobsutton1/

• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/bobsutton.net

• Website: https://bobsutton.net/

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Where to find Eric:

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In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(01:45) Insights from The Knowing Doing Gap

(09:29) How Becky Margiotta rewarded the doers of her 100,000 homes project 

(12:24) An explanation of why every organization is flawed 

(21:32) A case for still trying to improve the way companies are run 

(26:03) How larger organizations always do things worse—some worse than others

(27:58) A case of organizational improvement: The California Department of Motor Vehicles 

(29:58) Companies owned by private foundations and other unique models

(33:52) Lessons from Tim Cook around thinking critically about hiring

(36:26) Addition sickness

(39:58) Strategies for removing friction and adding good friction 

(46:42) Simple practices that work

(49:50) The ‘no asshole’ rule

(52:32) The pitfalls of holacracy and an explanation of ‘stagegate’

(57:18) Why founders sometimes need to step back after scaling

(1:01:09) Advice for founders who want to stay CEOs and operate in founder mode

(1:04:40) The importance of ‘torchbearers’ and resisting pressures for short-term gains

(1:08:30) A case for doing things the right way, even if you don’t have to 

(1:11:05) How corruption eventually degrades an organization 

(1:18:03) Lightning round

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You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Production and marketing by Pen Name.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.