Australian Elections Redux, Code v Counsel: AI and the Law, the Jumbo in the Room

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The Civic Podcast: Beyond the Echo Chambers

The Civic Podcast

9 episodes

2 days ago

In a world full of uncertainty and division, people want answers to uncomfortable questions. Law professor Markus Wagner is the host of the The Civic Podcast: Beyond the Echo Chambers. We give challenging ideas a fair hearing and know that understanding doesn't require consensus. Join The Civic Podcast as we navigate the complexities of politics and society and explore the stories shaping our world.

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Australian Elections Redux, Code v Counsel: AI and the Law, the Jumbo in the Room

The Civic Podcast: Beyond the Echo Chambers

39 minutes 55 seconds

5 months ago

Australian Elections Redux, Code v Counsel: AI and the Law, the Jumbo in the Room

Join hosts Markus Wagner and David Turner on The Civic Podcast as they discuss the aftermath of the Australian elections (definitely not boring!) and dive into the future of law in an AI-driven world. In the post-election roundup in Australia they cover the collapse of the Liberal–National coalition, Labor’s overwhelming majority, and the surprising demotion of Labor front benchers Mark Dreyfus and Ed Husic. Was this Richard Marles' doing or is Anthony Albanese showing his Machiavellian side? And does it damage the Labor brand? Markus and David offer fresh insight into what these shifts mean for the future of Australian politics—and why anyone abroad should be paying attention.They then dive deep into the uneasy intersection of AI and law. As trust in human lawyers wanes and AI-generated legal advice gains traction, are we witnessing a turning point—or a tech-fueled mirage? Markus and David explore whether generative AI is truly reshaping the path to justice, what it means for the legal profession and legal education, and whether we’re heading toward a two-tiered legal system. The episode closes with a look at what might never become Air Force One, but maybe the new Trump aircraft. A wide-ranging, provocative conversation you won’t want to miss.Links: Daron Acemoglu, Issue 129, 25 June 2024, Goldman Sachs Global Investment Research. Emily Berman, A Government of Laws and Not of Machines, (2018) 98(5) Boston University Law Review 1277. Gillespie, N., Lockey, S., Ward, T., Macdade, A., & Hassed, G. (2025). Trust, attitudes and use of artificial intelligence: A global study 2025. The University of Melbourne and KPMG. Lee et al, The Impact of Generative AI on Critical Thinking, 2025. Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor, AI as Normal Technology, Knight First Amendment Institute, 15 April 2025. Opinion Lex, LLM vs LLB: the case for junior lawyers is undermined by AI, FT, 11 May 2025. Eike Schneiders, Joshua Krook and Tina Seabrooke, People trust legal advice generated by ChatGPT more than a lawyer – new study, The Conversation, 28 April 2025. Eike Schneiders, Tina Seabrooke, Joshua Krook, Richard Hyde, Natalie Leesakul, Jeremie Clos, and Joel E Fischer. 2025. Objection Overruled! Lay People can Distinguish Large Language Models from Lawyers, but still Favour Advice from an LLM. 2025 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (CHI '25). Stockdale, M., & Mitchell, R. (2019). Legal advice privilege and artificial legal intelligence: Can robots give privileged legal advice? The International Journal of Evidence & Proof, 23(4), 422. Ari Ezra Waldman, ‘Power, Process, and Automated Decision-Making’ (2019) 88(2) Fordham Law Review 613. Socials: ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcast

Hosts:

⁠⁠Markus Wagner⁠⁠⁠ is Professor of Law at the⁠ ⁠⁠University of Wollongong⁠⁠⁠, Australia and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after⁠ commentator on⁠ ⁠TV, radio and other news outlets⁠⁠⁠.

David Turner is a lawyer and software developer from Sydney, Australia. As the principal lawyer of⁠ ⁠⁠Empirical Legal⁠⁠⁠, David advises Australian startups, scale-ups and small businesses on corporate advisory and technology challenges. As a co-founder of⁠ ⁠⁠Lext⁠⁠⁠, David works to make the law easier to access and easier to practise through software. Lext develops its own software-as-a-service products, and also works with government agencies, law firms and not-for-profit organisations to develop technological solutions to law and justice problems.