Ric Krause  | LinkedIn Katty: Ric, thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the artisan podcast. Looking at your resume, the through line that I see through everything is really the impact of the narrative.  Where did this passion come from for you? How did you get started in this?  Ric: Actually, in college, I was a music major. I was a composition major, and so even before I got to writing, I was working with form, and my composition teacher said, you could paint a room red and with one white dot, and that's okay, but you better defend that white dot, and that goes to the structure underneath creative,  and it was such a great exercise to get as free as you could, then pin it into a structural foundation.  And then in music, there's all sorts of rules for harmony, ease, melody, tonality. And so the concept is built into the structure immediately.  And that helped me with everything I did. So when I segued into writing, and I had written a play  and that got me represented, and then I started pitching and started to sell TV stuff and film stuff,  all of those, all the ability to think conceptually and grounded into structure came into play. And at the same time, we are synaptically hardwired to engage with story. So if you can really use that to your advantage and get people to engage quickly and wonder what happens next, however, that translates into your messaging,  people are wired to be taken by the lapel and led forward,  and it's what you're utilizing with good storytelling. Katty: You're going to invite people into that story with good storytelling. Ric: Yeah, I would say more than invite them, you grab them. Really good storytelling and audiences on the edge of their seat, leaning forward toward you.  One, someone is leaning in. And within brand messaging, it's really within, I think, less than three seconds,  you've got them.  If they're already tuning you out, how do you make up for that difference when they're already leaning back out of your messaging? How are you going to pull them back in? That's tough. Once you've got them, of course, you have to extend their engagement all the way to the end, which in a lot of CTA, but you have to grab them in, whether you're telling a thriller or a 30 second spot.  Katty: Okay, so what's the How? How does a copywriter who's starting in their career path right now make that shift of saying, okay, just writing copy for the sake of writing copy is different than what Ric is talking about right now? Ric: Yeah I, think that you have to always consider the one question that is the through line of all narrative, whatever that narrative is, and that question is "what happens next?" What happens next? What happens next? There are many tools that you can use to get there.  A reversal reversal expectation; A plot twist.  You set someone up to believe one thing and then it changes.  Use an interesting hero or antagonist, use a cliffhanger, use backstory. We're doing this because this happened before.  You can use all those tools and you're setting people up to track your message with the synaptic pathways that are already there for receiving narrative. It's taking advantage of something we're already disposed to engage with.  Katty: How do you do that in like a 30-second spot though?  Ric: This is where the agencies are often really good at the 30-second spot. My question is what would go beyond that? You have to engage really quickly with, I think, both the right type of hero, heroine and the right type of world-building.  And world-building means that we're always trying to make our audience feel something.  It's not a dry exercise. We want them to feel they are the real heroes of the story. They're the stars of the story. And we have to deal with how we want them to feel while using our product. If you're an Alfa Romeo buyer, you're a sexy soul and if you're a Jeep buyer, you're a rugged individual, right? They're different. Brands have different feels to them. So