In this special bonus episode Ruth converses with pastor, author, speaker and long time friend, John Ortberg about his new book ’Steps, A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough.’ They explore the intersections between spiritual formation, transformation, and the powerful principles behind the 12-step program of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). John shares his personal journey, insights on profound spiritual practices, and the importance of vulnerability and safety in transformational spaces. Their discussion delves into the crucial role of rigorous self-examination, authentic confession, and the deep, often painful, realization of powerlessness in achieving true spiritual transformation.