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Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
Kay Walten
16 episodes
18 hours ago
Running a rental, inn, or small destination brand shouldn’t mean doing it all—or burning out. Seen. Booked. Sane. helps indie stays and small destinations get booked, trusted, and talked about through real strategy, smart messaging, and tools (including AI) that actually work. Weekly episodes share what’s working right now—for people who want to grow without selling out.
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All content for Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout. is the property of Kay Walten and is served directly from their servers with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.
Running a rental, inn, or small destination brand shouldn’t mean doing it all—or burning out. Seen. Booked. Sane. helps indie stays and small destinations get booked, trusted, and talked about through real strategy, smart messaging, and tools (including AI) that actually work. Weekly episodes share what’s working right now—for people who want to grow without selling out.
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Marketing
Business
Episodes (16/16)
Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
One Neighbor, One Idea, One Season That Changed Everything

You don’t need a marketing budget—you need the courage to start a conversation.

In this episode, Kay Walten, founder of Smart Pineapple and host of Seen. Booked. Sane., shares real stories of small operators who turned everyday neighborly connections into booking-boosting collaborations.

✨ From a West Virginia inn and bakery that built a breakfast ritual guests now travel for…


🍺 To the Corfu Beer Festival in Greece that filled hotels during the off-season…


🍷 To a Canadian wine region where local partnerships reshaped tourism…


You’ll hear how one idea, one conversation, and one small collaboration can transform a business—and a community.

What You’ll Learn:

  • How small hotels, vacation rentals, and destinations can partner locally to grow bookings.

  • Why 85% of hotels report better guest reviews after local collaborations (HospitalityNet & RTO9).

  • The simple “1 neighbor → 1 conversation → 1 offer” formula you can start this week.

Listen if you:

  • Run a boutique hotel, vacation rental, or unique stay.

  • Want authentic marketing that builds trust, not just clicks.

  • Believe hospitality still has heart.

After you listen:
Write down one neighbor you could collaborate with—and tell Kay how it goes.


Get an easy How To go to: How to create your first Stay and Play Offer in an Afternoon.


Tag @SmartPineapple or share your story using #SeenBookedSane so we can feature it in a future episode.

Stay seen. Stay booked. Stay sane.

Show more...
1 week ago
6 minutes 6 seconds

Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
Rebuilding Trust, One Stay at a Time

When guests lose trust, it doesn’t start with a lawsuit — it starts with a small lie. An outdated photo. A broken promise. A silence that lasts too long.

In this episode, Kay Walten of Smart Pineapple breaks down real stories of trust lost and trust rebuilt — from small inns to boutique hotels that turned transparency into loyalty (and profit).

You’ll hear:

  • A Michigan Attorney General case that exposed hotel operators running a bait-and-switch scheme.

  • How Boar’s Head Resort learned that ignoring reviews can cost more than a refund.

  • The Rex Hotel’s wild transformation from a crumbling $242K motel into a $3K-a-night boutique success story.

  • What Historic Smithton Inn and Wingate Hotel taught us about communication during crisis.

  • The Shores Inn verdict — a $2M lesson in why silence isn’t neutral.

  • And how Hotel Crescent Court proved that accurate photos and honest storytelling can double bookings.

Because trust isn’t built online — it’s proven offline, one honest detail at a time.

  • Honesty is a competitive advantage.

  • Transparency isn’t PR — it’s profit.

  • You can rebuild trust faster than you think — but never by hiding.

Trust isn’t built online — but conversations like this are.

👉 Subscribe to Seen, Booked, Sane wherever you get your podcasts,or get the extended notes, links, and tools every week on Substack:🔗 ⁠https://aiforhospitality.info⁠

Like What You Heard? Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.


Sources:

Mackinaw City Hotels (2022)
Michigan Attorney General Press Release – “AG Nessel Announces Settlement With Mackinaw City Hotels”
FOX 2 Detroit Coverage – “Mackinaw City Hotels Accused of Tricking Guests”
Detroit Free Press – “Michigan Hotels Accused of Duping Guests”

Boar’s Head Resort (2024)
TripAdvisor Reviews & Reddit Threads (r/charlottesville, 2024)

The Rex Hotel (2021–2024)
Realtor.com – “We Transformed an Abandoned Motel Into a $3K-a-Day Boutique Hotel”
Business Insider – “A Couple Bought a $242,000 Motel and Turned It Into a Boutique Getaway”
Finding Promised Land YouTube Channel
🔗 https://www.youtube.com/@FindingPromisedLand

Wingate Hotel, Steubenville, OH (2025)
Herald-Star – “Wingate Hotel Faces Mold, Structural Issues”
The Intelligencer – “Steubenville Wingate Hotel Under Health Department Investigation”
WTOV9 News – “Officials Probe Wingate Hotel for Health, Safety Violations”

Historic Smithton Inn (2020)
eHotelier Case Study – “Major Chains and Small Hotels: Business Recovery During COVID-19”

Shores Inn, Ventura, CA (2020–2025)
Los Angeles Times – “Bed Bugs in Ventura Hotel Lead to $2-Million Jury Ruling”
KFI AM 640 – “California Hotel Guests Win $2M in Bed Bug Lawsuit”
USA Today – “2 Hotel Guests in California Awarded $2 Million in Bed Bug Lawsuit”

Flevy Boutique Hotel Service Case Study (2024)

Hotel Crescent Court, Dallas, TX (2023)
TravelBoom Marketing Case Study – “Hotel Crescent Court: New Site Launch Yields 46% More Bookings”
TripAdvisor Insights – “The Impact of Photos on Traveler Engagement”

Written and narrated by Kay Walten
Produced by Smart Pineapple
Research by Smart Pineapple Editorial Team

Show more...
1 week ago
5 minutes 54 seconds

Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
Stop Writing. Start Stealing from Your Reviews.

How Vacation Rentals & Hotels Turn Guest Feedback into Bookings

You’re losing bookings to properties worse than yours — not because they’re cheaper, but because they sound better.

Here’s the kicker: your guests already wrote your next marketing campaign. You just haven’t stolen it yet.

In this episode of Seen. Booked. Sane., Kay Walten, founder of Smart Pineapple, reveals how to turn guest reviews into marketing copy that drives direct bookings for vacation rentals, boutique hotels, and short-term rentals.

You’ll learn:

  • How to use the Review-to-Story Method to write listings that sound human

  • Why emotional storytelling outperforms feature lists

  • How to sell belonging instead of just location

  • Simple ways to use AI tools in hospitality without losing the personal touch

  • Quick tips to rewrite your OTA descriptions and automate with empathy

Because great stories get remembered.
Great guest experiences get rebooked.
And the hosts who sound human? They stay sane.


🧾 Episode Resources & Mentions

  • Smart Pineapple: https://www.smartpineapple.ai

  • AI for Hospitality Substack: https://www.aiforhospitality.info

  • Research referenced:

    • Zloteanu et al., 2018 – Digital Identity: The Effect of Trust and Reputation Information on User Judgement in the Sharing Economy.

    • Martinez et al., 2017 – The Impact of an Airbnb Host’s Listing Description “Sentiment” and Length on Occupancy Rates.

    • Hostfully Case Studies, 2024 – Revenue Growth Through Guest-Focused Messaging.

    • Lighthouse, 2024 – Vacation Rental Distribution Trends.

    • AirDNA, 2024 – U.S. Short-Term Rental Outlook.


💡 Listener Challenge

Find one line in your listing or website that sounds robotic.
Rewrite it using your guest’s own words — then tag @SmartPineapple or email hello@smartpineapple.ai to share your before-and-after.

Show more...
2 weeks ago
6 minutes 26 seconds

Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
Story Before Structure: What Guests Are Already Telling You About Growth

Before you build the next cabin or pour concrete for that dream spa, pause.

Your next big idea might already be hidden in your guest reviews.

In this episode, Kay Walten breaks down how small hotels and vacation rentals can grow smarter—by listening first, building later.

I built one for you — the Property Revenue & Offer Tracker. It’s a plug-and-play spreadsheet that tracks bookings, upsells, and which offers actually make you money.

👉 Get it here


  • Subscribe to us on Substack for more useful strategies and tips.
  • Visit our website and blog

Show more...
3 weeks ago
6 minutes 2 seconds

Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
5 Ways to Rank Higher on Airbnb (Fast + Free)

If your Airbnb listing feels invisible lately, you’re not imagining it.


Airbnb’s ranking system has changed — it now rewards hosts who deliver great guest experiences, not just great listings.

In this short episode of Seen. Booked. Sane. SHORTS, Smart Pineapple founder Kay Walten shares a five-minute “Visibility Audit” designed for busy property owners and managers.
You’ll learn how to spot the key issues that quietly lower your ranking — and how to fix them fast using simple steps (and a little help from AI).

  • The real signals Airbnb uses to rank listings (and what they mean for you)

  • A five-step “visibility audit” you can do between turnovers

  • How to read your own reviews for repeat issues

  • Why accurate photos and pricing matter more than ever

  • How small listing updates signal quality to the algorithm

  • Quick, low-stress ways AI can help you update faster

Run the five-point audit this week:

  1. Review your latest guest feedback.

  2. Update your photos and descriptions.

  3. Fix recurring guest questions or complaints.

  4. Check your price against similar listings.

  5. Refresh your listing once a month.

Share your results or questions inside the Smart Pineapple Community — we’ll be talking about what changed after hosts ran this audit.

Quick, human-centered insights from Smart Pineapple — where hospitality meets AI and still feels human.
Hosted by Kay Walten, each SHORT gives you one clear action to grow your bookings, delight guests, and keep your sanity intact.

  • Join the Smart Pineapple Community for free resources and conversation

  • Explore Smart Pineapple’s AI tools, courses, and playbooks at smartpineapple.ai

  • Connect with Kay on LinkedIn

What You’ll Learn

  • The real signals Airbnb uses to rank listings (and what they mean for you)
  • A five-step “visibility audit” you can do between turnovers
  • How to read your own reviews for repeat issues
  • Why accurate photos and pricing matter more than ever
  • How small listing updates signal quality to the algorithm
  • Quick, low-stress ways AI can help you update faster

  • 🛠️ Action Step

    Run the five-point audit this week:

    1. Review your latest guest feedback.

    2. Update your photos and descriptions.

    3. Fix recurring guest questions or complaints.

    4. Check your price against similar listings.

    5. Refresh your listing once a month.

    Share your results or questions inside the Smart Pineapple Community — we’ll be talking about what changed after hosts ran this audit.


    🍍 About Seen. Booked. Sane

    Quick, human-centered insights from Smart Pineapple — where hospitality meets AI and still feels human.


    Hosted by Kay Walten, each SHORT gives you one clear action to grow your bookings, delight guests, and keep your sanity intact.


    Care for your guests. Care for your details.
    Use AI to do both better — and stay seen, booked, and sane.

  • Show more...
    4 weeks ago
    2 minutes 17 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    Why Your Best Marketing Tool Isn’t Marketing

    Episode Summary
    Big chains sell rooms. Small stays sell stories.
    In this episode, Kay Walten shares the Personalize → Prototype → Partner playbook for independent operators who want to boost guest loyalty, drive repeat bookings, and capture more of the $775 guests typically spend outside their rooms. Packed with research, case studies, and cheeky truth, this is your roadmap for turning size into an advantage in 2025.

    • Why guests remember ceviche shacks, not thread counts.

    • How a simple personal touch can lift repeat bookings.

    • The magic of testing micro-experiences (and what success rates to expect).

    • Why partnerships with locals outperform glossy brochures.

    • How reputation directly impacts revenue.

    • A 30-day challenge to get started with personalization, prototyping, or partnering.

  • Sources Mentioned

    • Airbnb U.S. Economic Impact Study (2024): Vacation rental guests spend ~$775 per trip beyond lodging.
      👉 Read here

    • Cornell Center for Hospitality Research: Online reputation growth of 1% = ~0.5–1.4% more revenue per available room. Review response efficiency plateaus after ~40%.
      👉 Cornell Hospitality Research

    • McKinsey & Company, Travel Loyalty (2024): 78% of travelers more likely to repurchase when offered personalized experiences.
      👉 McKinsey Report

    • AirDNA Market Outlook (2025): Rural and “unique stays” are among the fastest-growing segments.
      👉 AirDNA Research

    • STR Global Independent Lodging Report (2024): Direct bookings for independents grew 11% year-over-year.
      👉 STR Report

    • Han, H. et al., PLOS ONE (2021): Over half of global travelers are willing to pay ~5–10% more for eco-certified stays.
      👉 PLOS ONE Study

    • Case Study: Glenegedale House (VisitScotland): Leveraging local food partnerships led to 11% income growth and 65% repeat bookings.
      👉 VisitScotland Case Study

    • 📝 Property Revenue & Offer Tracker → Plug-and-play spreadsheet to track bookings, upsells, and what’s really making you money. $29 on Gumroad

    • 📬 AI for Hospitality on Substack → Weekly strategies, workflows, and cheeky truths for small operators. Visit AIforHospitality.info

    Resources & Tools

    📝 Property Revenue & Offer Tracker → Plug-and-play spreadsheet to track bookings, upsells, and what’s really making you money. $29 on Gumroad

    • 📬 AI for Hospitality on Substack → Weekly strategies, workflows, and cheeky truths for small operators. Visit AIforHospitality.info

    Run one test this month: personalize, prototype, or partner.
    Track the results.


    And remember: guests aren’t buying rooms. They’re buying moments.


    Show more...
    1 month ago
    7 minutes 40 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    Everyone Wants a Viral Post


  • Kay Walten invites vacation rental operators and hoteliers to rethink splashy campaigns and start building lasting guest loyalty with consistent systems—from email, to social, to AI-powered review analysis. This episode features case studies, benchmarks, practical AI prompts, and proof you can trust.

    Featured in this Episode:

    • Real results: My Beach Vacation Rentals scaling with data-driven systems
    • ReTreet Resort’s influencer strategy—why week-by-week wins beat virality
    • Industry benchmarks: Hospitality email ROI outpaces paid ads

    • Constant Contact data: Small inns boost repeat guests with regular updates

    • Louisville: $4.4B in tourism from steady festivals—not one-off ads
    • Stornara, Italy: Street art as a multi-year tourism magnet
    • AI adoption: Hospitality pros using ChatGPT, Gemini, and more for guest messaging
    • Market Movers Travel
  • Action Steps This Week:

    • How to audit your wins and choose one repeatable

    • Simple, proven AI prompts to generate content

    • Why it’s okay to miss a month (and how coming back compounds results)

    Subscribe for More:
    Get weekly tested plays at “AI for Hospitality” (Substack)—the newsletter for operators who want resilience, not stress.

    For listener questions, feedback, or guest requests, contact Kay directly at kay@smartpineapple.ai or visit our episode page.



    Show more...
    1 month ago
    8 minutes 47 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    Why Airbnb Doesn’t Want You Calling Your Guests

    Airbnb is rolling out temporary phone numbers that disappear two days after checkout. On the surface, it’s about privacy. In practice, it’s about control. In this episode of Seen. Booked. Sane. Shorts, Kay Walten breaks down what this means for hosts and hotels, why it kills your follow-up, and the smart ways to build direct guest channels that actually last.


    Want more sharp hits of news, truth, and strategy for indie stays and small hotels? Subscribe at aiforhospitality.substack.com.

    Show more...
    1 month ago
    1 minute 54 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    Logos Don’t Book Rooms. Visibility Does

    Episode Summary:

    Logos don’t fill beds. Visibility does. In this episode, Kay breaks down why obsessing over brand design is costing operators real money—and what to do instead. With lessons from Iceland, Derby, and Zoku hotels, you’ll learn the “3 V’s of Visibility” framework, see the ROI math in action, and walk away with two simple steps you can do today to boost bookings.

    What You’ll Learn

    • Why logos = ego, visibility = revenue

    • Case studies: Iceland’s volcano stunt, Derby’s mountain biking boom, Zoku’s guest-driven brand

    • The 3 V’s of Visibility framework: Guests, Community, Campaigns

    • Back-of-the-napkin math that proves one guest photo can out-earn a $5K rebrand

    • Two action steps: quick win + stretch play

    Stats & Sources

    • Iceland tourism arrivals grew nearly 40% and receipts ~40% after 2010 volcanic eruption + Inspired by Icelandcampaign (OECD report)

    • Derby, Tasmania attracts ~30,000 visitors annually, generates ~$12M revenue, creates 120 jobs, and added 200 beds thanks to MTB trails (Hans Rey case study)

    • MTB tourism in Tasmania grew 11% annually over 5 years, reaching ~27,700 interstate/international visitors by 2020 (Tourism Tasmania report)

    Quote to Remember:

    “Logos are for your ego. Visibility is for your revenue.”


    Try This

    • Quick Win: Drop your last 20 reviews into ChatGPT. Ask, “What do guests rave about most?” Use that as your next headline.

    • Stretch Play: Pick one guest-loved experience (fire pit, view, Saturday market) and turn it into a 30-second reel today. Post it.

    Stay Connected. For cheeky truths and AI-driven hospitality strategies, visit smartpineapple.ai and follow Kay on LinkedIn.


    And don’t miss us on Substack: Smart Pineapple’s AI for Hospitality, for weekly insights and resources made for operators like you.

    Show more...
    1 month ago
    4 minutes 32 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    Airbnb’s 15% Fee: The Truth No Host Wants to Hear

    Airbnb just gave every host, manager, and boutique hotel a 15% pay cut.
    Here’s the blunt truth: guests don’t save a dime. You lose margin. And unless you build your own direct booking system, it won’t stop at 15.

    In this episode of Seen Booked Sane, I break down:


    ✔️ How Airbnb’s new 15.5% fee structure really works
    ✔️ The long-term cost (spoiler: $40K over 5 years on $50K annual bookings)
    ✔️ Why Airbnb isn’t your business — it’s just a channel
    ✔️ 3 big myths about direct bookings (and the smarter play instead)
    ✔️ How AI makes “going direct” easier than ever


    💡 Plus: I built something to help.
    The Smart Pineapple Direct Booking Power Pack is my free bundle with templates, strategies, and AI shortcuts to protect your revenue and build guest loyalty.

    👉 Grab your free Power Pack here

    Because here’s the truth:

    • Airbnb owns the channel.

    • You own the guest.

    • And when you do? That 15.5% fee doesn’t touch you anymore.

    Show more...
    2 months ago
    7 minutes 15 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    They Tripled Rates. Did You?

    Your bookings aren’t broken. Your strategy is.
    Seen. Booked. Sane. is the no-fluff, all-fun show for vacation rental owners, boutique hoteliers, and small-stay pros who want more guests, more profit, and less chaos.


    Hosted by Kay Walten of Smart Pineapple, each short, sharp episode tackles the real stuff holding you back—from pricing mistakes to guest experience wins—served with a side of cheeky truth and zero boring jargon.


    If you’re ready to outsmart the big chains, cash in on local demand, and still have a life outside check-in day… you’re in the right place.


    Download your copy of Turn Events into Bookings

    Show more...
    2 months ago
    3 minutes 55 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    Not Fancy—Just Smart: What 2025 Guests Expect from Your Stay

    Guests don’t want fancy. They want frictionless.
    In 2025, personalization isn’t a perk—it’s the baseline. Whether you run a boutique hotel, a remote Airbnb, or a glamping cabin in the woods, your guests expect seamless, thoughtful touches... and they don’t care how many staff you have.

    In this episode, Kay breaks down:
    – What “smart stays” are doing to personalize without sounding robotic
    – How indie properties are using AI to get more repeat guests (and better reviews)
    – Why automation doesn’t mean losing the human touch—it means saving it
    – One powerful story about a tiny stay that used an AI trip planner to wow even their regulars


    Tech doesn’t replace hospitality. It lets you actually practice it.

    Next up: We’re pulling back the curtain on rental software.
    That all-in-one solution? Might be quietly sinking your margins.
    Don’t miss it.


    Connect with Kay on Linkedin

    Subscribe on Substack

    Smart Pineapple Website

    Show more...
    3 months ago
    4 minutes 37 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    One Blog, Five Uses, Zero Commission

    Most hosts are stuck in a cycle: waiting on OTAs, tweaking listings, hoping the algorithm shows them some love. But what if your next booking didn’t come from Airbnb—or Vrbo—or some endless scroll?

    In this episode, Kay Walten breaks down why your vacation rental or boutique stay needs a blog in 2025—and how one simple post can work harder than most hosts realize.

    You’ll learn:

    • Why blogging still works (and why it’s not just a trend from 2012)

    • What kind of blog posts build trust and get seen by the right guests

    • How one blog can fuel your SEO, social, email, and even future podcasts

    • The real ROI—and how skipping just two OTA commissions can pay for it all


    This isn’t fluff. It’s strategy for small stays who want visibility before guests ever hit the OTAs.

    And the best part? You don’t need to be a writer—you just need to know your guests.

    → Follow Kay on Substack for weekly tips + tools for vacation rentals, small hotels, and indie destinations.



    Show more...
    3 months ago
    3 minutes

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    How Smart Hosts Use AI to Save 14 Hours a Week—Without Sounding Like a Bot

    What if AI could give you back 14 hours a week—and help your small property look more polished than the big chains, without hiring a team?

    In this episode of Seen. Booked. Sane., Kay Walten breaks down how indie hosts, boutique hoteliers, and small destinations are using AI for messaging, pricing, guest support, and content—without sounding robotic or losing the human touch.

    We’ll cover:

    • Why AI is your new relief valve (not your replacement)

    • Real stats behind the AI wave in hospitality

    • Simple ways to start—even if you’re not techy

    • One cheeky story about a chatbot that never asks for a raise

    Plus: how to fire your inner micromanager and still get the job done.


    Grab the free AI Messaging Cheat Sheet: aiforhospitality.info

    Show more...
    3 months ago
    4 minutes 36 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    83 Days to Book, 8 Seconds to Ghost: Why AI Messaging Matters More Than Ever

    Your guest is taking 83 days to book—comparing properties, asking questions, and second-guessing every move. But you? You’ve only got 8 seconds to sound human or lose the booking.

    In this episode of Seen. Booked. Sane., Kay Walten breaks down:

    • Why robotic replies are killing trust
    • What guests really expect before they book
    • How to use AI tools like Hospitable, TIDIO, and DACK without sounding like a robot
    • What to avoid if you want reviews that read like “thoughtful and responsive” instead of “felt like a bot”


    Want the free messaging cheat sheet and tools that help you book better, faster, and more human?
    Go to aiforhospitality.info

    Show more...
    3 months ago
    3 minutes 17 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    You’re Doing Too Much. Let’s Fix That.

    Think you need to be everywhere, post daily, and answer every message at midnight to stay booked?

    You don’t.

    In this quick intro, Kay Walten lays out what Seen. Booked. Sane. is really about: real strategy, better messaging, and smart tools to help small stays + destinations grow—without losing your mind.

    Show more...
    3 months ago
    1 minute 8 seconds

    Seen. Booked. Sane. Marketing for indie stays + destinations who want bookings without burnout.
    Running a rental, inn, or small destination brand shouldn’t mean doing it all—or burning out. Seen. Booked. Sane. helps indie stays and small destinations get booked, trusted, and talked about through real strategy, smart messaging, and tools (including AI) that actually work. Weekly episodes share what’s working right now—for people who want to grow without selling out.