Episode Summary: Mark Otero (CEO of Azra Games, creator of Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes) joins Player Driven to break down the real reason most games fail — they ignore what players actually want. In this raw, philosophical, and brutally honest conversation, Mark introduces the Hierarchy of Fun — a 5-layer model for building long-lasting emotional engagement in games. From escaping poverty through fantasy as a child in South Korea, to scaling a yogurt shop to fund his first game studio, to building billion-dollar RPGs at EA, Mark's story is a masterclass in design thinking, human behavior, and creative conviction. He also shares why AI will either multiply your creativity or expose your culture — and how his new title Ungodly aims to reset the bar for 4th-gen RPGs. This episode is for game devs, LiveOps leaders, publishing execs, and anyone asking: Why do some games stick... and others don't? 📌 Key Takeaways 1. The Hierarchy of Fun Mark breaks down his 5-layer framework for sustainable game engagement: * First impression * Core loop * Progression * Meta mastery * Emotional connection Each layer must make the player feel something — and if you flip it, it becomes your funnel for long-term retention. 2. Design for Primal Desires, Not Personas Mark argues that all player motivation maps back to love, power, or wealth. Most games try to broaden appeal and end up designing for no one. Pick one fantasy — and serve it ruthlessly. 3. 4th-Gen RPGs and the 9-Second Rule With mobile phones now as powerful as last-gen consoles, we've entered a new generation of RPGs. Ungodly is designed to immerse players in 9 seconds, not 9 minutes — a 60x improvement over the old model. ⏱️ Timestamps 01:00 — Mark's origin story: poverty, fantasy, and Dungeons & Dragons as a lifeline 14:00 — The Hierarchy of Fun: a new model for player experience 31:00 — Why most games fail when they abandon their core fantasy 44:00 — What makes a 4th-gen RPG, and how Ungodly is redefining immersion 58:00 — AI, culture, and the edge small studios have (if they move fast) 🧠 SEO Keywords (for search + episode description) * game design philosophy * hierarchy of fun * player motivation design * RPG design frameworks * mobile RPG engagement * Azra Games Ungodly * retention in game design * AI in game development * game publishing strategy * Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes insights 🎙️ Guest Mark Otero CEO & Founder of Azra Games. Former GM at EA Capital Games, creator of Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes. Veteran in collectible RPGs and systems design. 🔗 Azra Games [https://www.azragames.com/] 🔗 Mark on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/markotero/]