Our special guest for this episode is Amy Devers, host of the amazing podcast Clever. This is a podcast about design. Well, actually, it's about designers, too. Sure, they're visionaries, problem-solvers, critical thinkers, and rebels, but above all, Amy highlights they're human. In this episode Amy chats with me about her design work, we get her podcasters picks, and of course, we get into his dope show Clever.

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