Podcast Show Summary
Guest Details
The Honorable William Matthewman - United States Magistrate Judge, Southern District of Florida
Key Takeaways
Evolving Technological Competence:
Judge Matthewman emphasized that lawyers must go beyond basic technology knowledge; true ethical practice today requires understanding platforms like Slack, Teams, and the implications of emerging technologies like Generative AI and ephemeral messaging.
The Role of the Judiciary in Technology:
Judges have an essential responsibility not only to stay updated on e-discovery and ESI (Electronically Stored Information) but also to actively manage cases to ensure fair, efficient, and proportional discovery processes using technology.
Generative AI’s Opportunities and Risks:
While Gen AI offers exciting new efficiencies, Judge Matthewman warned that it must be properly supervised. Lawyers (and pro se litigants) cannot blindly rely on AI outputs without rigorous verification, as hallucinations and misinformation still pose risks.
Action Items
Lawyers: Stay updated through CLEs, seminars, and self-study; if technical knowledge is lacking, partner with IT experts or vendors.
Judges: Actively educate themselves and help guide lawyers in properly managing e-discovery and technological issues.
Organizations: Encourage young lawyers to focus on core legal skills (communication, evaluation, strategy, litigation) while responsibly using AI as an assistant—not a replacement.
Pro Se Litigants: Must be cautioned to verify AI-generated legal materials to avoid filing hallucinated or incorrect submissions.
Chapters with Timecodes
00:10:11 🎙️ Opening & Guest Introduction: Introduction of Judge Matthewman and his background.
00:11:06 📚 Key Tenets of E-Discovery: Discussing the 10 Tenets from Judge’s Law Review article and their relevance today.
00:13:04📈 Are We Closer to Better E-Discovery?: Status update on the legal community's adherence to better e-discovery practices.
00:14:15 ⚖️ Judges’ Role in Encouraging Tech Adoption: How the judiciary should lead in promoting technological competence.
00:17:59🔥 The Expanding Definition of Competence: Why basic knowledge isn't enough for lawyers anymore.
00:23:03📚 Continuing Legal Education & Lifelong Learning: How lawyers must keep evolving their technology knowledge.
00:24:20🤖 Gen AI's Impact on Law and E-Discovery: Challenges and opportunities Gen AI presents.
00:27:47🕵️ Supervising Gen AI in Legal Work: Why oversight is critical when using Gen AI for document review.
00:30:42👩🎓 Young Lawyers and AI: Risks and realities of new lawyers growing up with Gen AI tools.
00:37:17 ⚖️ Equal Access and Pro Se Litigants: Gen AI's double-edged impact on pro se litigants.
00:40:01💡 Building Good Lawyers in a High-Tech Era: Essential skills every young lawyer must develop.
00:44:09 🏛 Judge Matthewman's Legacy Vision: Final thoughts on building a fairer justice system.
00:47:22🎤 Closing: Thanking Judge Matthewman and wrapping up.
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Guest Details
Kelly Twigger - CEO of Minerva26
Kelly Twigger is the creator of the ESI Practical Guides, host of Case of the Week series, frequent panelist and webinar contributor on eDiscovery topics. She is also a practicing attorney and Adjunct Professor teaching eDiscovery at the University of Colorado at Boulder Law School.
Key Takeaways
Hyperlinked Documents Pose New Challenges:
Courts are inconsistent on whether hyperlinked documents should be treated like attachments. Organizations must proactively manage hyperlink data, and counsel must adapt to technical realities.
The Role of Legal and IT Collaboration:
Organizations that effectively align legal and IT through strong information governance and proactive policy-setting can better control discovery costs and reduce litigation risk.
Generative AI Brings Both Promise and Risk:
While Gen AI offers potential efficiencies, it also introduces ethical risks—such as hallucinated case law—that lawyers must diligently supervise and verify.
Action Items
Chapters with Timecodes
00:00:00 🎙 Guest Introduction: Kelly Twigger's background in eDiscovery and education.
00:05:00📎 Challenges with Hyperlinked Documents: Legal and technical issues, and how courts are grappling with them.
00:15:00 🏛 Organizational Technology Choices: Holding companies accountable for ESI management decisions.
00:22:00🔗 Hyperlinks in ESI Protocols: Lessons from recent cases on improperly scoped ESI protocols.
00:30:00 🛠 Information Governance and IT Collaboration: Building bridges between legal and IT for better discovery outcomes.
00:38:00🚀 Generative AI Risks and Ethics: The promise of AI and the ethical pitfalls lawyers must avoid.
00:47:00 🎓 The Role of AI in Legal Education: How law schools and students must adapt to the new tech-driven reality.
00:55:00🔥 Ephemeral Data Challenges: Why disappearing messaging apps create major risks in litigation.
01:05:00🧩 Future Legal Trends: Predicting how AI and data practices will reshape the legal landscape by 2026.
Most Compelling and Thought-Provoking Quote
"The tools will change, but our obligation to preserve the integrity of the legal process never will."
✅ This perfectly captures the heart of the episode: technology may shift rapidly, but the ethical responsibilities of lawyers remain constant.
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Podcast Show Summary
Guest Details
Judge Allison Goddard – U.S. Magistrate Judge, Southern District of California
Judge Goddard brings a wealth of experience from both private practice and the judiciary. She has been at the forefront of eDiscovery, AI in litigation, and proportionality in modern discovery. Recently, she collaborated with the Sedona Conference on AI guidance for the judiciary, making her an invaluable voice on legal tech adoption.
Key Takeaways
1️⃣ AI in the Judiciary Is Here to Stay – Courts are exploring how judges can responsibly use Gen AI while maintaining human oversight ("Judge in the Loop"). AI can enhance efficiency, but it requires proper safeguards.
2️⃣ The Evolving Role of AI in Discovery – AI-assisted eDiscovery tools, hyperlinked documents, and bias in search prompts are raising new legal challenges. Attorneys and judges will need to balance efficiency with defensibility in discovery practices.
3️⃣ The Black Box Problem & Legal Trust – While AI tools are powerful, many legal professionals remain skeptical because of lack of transparency and potential bias. The judiciary will likely require expert testimony and case law development to address these concerns.
Action Items
✅ Judges should explore Gen AI responsibly – AI can assist in drafting orders and summarizing briefs but should never replace judicial reasoning.
✅ Lawyers must address AI in Rule 26 Conferences – Expect new disputes over AI-generated discovery results and defensibility of prompts.
✅ Stay updated on AI case law & Sedona Guidelines – Courts are actively shaping policies on Gen AI in discovery, confidentiality, and proportionality.
Podcast Chapters & Timecodes
🕒 00:00 – Introduction: Welcoming Judge Allison Goddard and her work in AI & eDiscovery.
🕒 02:13 – AI in the Judiciary: How the Sedona Conference guidelines shape AI use for judges.
🕒 10:46 – The Complacency Risk: AI tools are getting better, but judges & lawyers must avoid over-reliance.
🕒 19:07 – AI in Drafting & Decision Making: How Gen AI enhances efficiency while preserving human judgment.
🕒 28:48 – AI in eDiscovery: A New TAR Battle?: The next legal fights will likely center around AI-generated search results & bias in prompts.
🕒 37:28 – Show Me Your Prompt!: Will courts begin demanding AI prompt transparency in discovery disputes?
🕒 45:10 – The Future of AI in Law: How AI could reduce bias in judicial decisions and reshape legal practice.
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Podcast Show Summary
Guest Details
Doug Austin – Founder & Editor of eDiscovery Today
Doug has been a leader in the eDiscovery industry for over 30 years, with expertise spanning consulting, project management, and daily industry analysis. As the editor of eDiscovery Today, he provides key insights on emerging trends, case law, and legal technology.
The Cloud Has Reshaped eDiscovery – The shift from on-premise to cloud-based data has significantly transformed how legal professionals approach eDiscovery. With the explosion of collaboration tools like Slack, Teams, and Google Drive, legal teams must rethink collection strategies.
Hyperlinked Documents Are a Game-Changer (and a Challenge) – The transition from traditional email attachments to linked files presents new hurdles in preservation, collection, and proportionality. Courts are beginning to weigh in, but clear best practices are still evolving.
Deepfakes & Fabricated Evidence Will Be Major Legal Challenges – The rise of generative AI makes it easier to create and manipulate evidence. Legal professionals must develop new strategies to authenticate digital evidence and ensure forensic integrity.
✅ Stay informed on hyperlinked document case law—protocols are evolving rapidly.
✅ Ensure metadata and forensic analysis are prioritized to validate digital evidence.
✅ Invest in education & certifications (like ACEDS) to stay ahead of eDiscovery trends.
✅ Dedicate 5-15 minutes daily to reading legal tech insights and 1 hour per month to attending webinars.
🕒 00:00 – Introduction: Welcoming Doug Austin, background in eDiscovery.
🕒 06:22 – The Evolution of eDiscovery: From paper-based discovery to digital transformation.
🕒 16:51 – The Most Impactful Technology Shift: Why the cloud is the most significant disruptor.
🕒 19:56 – Hyperlinked Documents & Legal Challenges: How courts are dealing with modern attachments.
🕒 28:44 – The "Smoking Emoji" Case & Deepfakes: The rise of fabricated evidence in courtrooms.
🕒 38:11 – Where to Stay Educated in eDiscovery: Key resources, blogs, and conferences.
🕒 41:56 – State of the Industry Insights: Key takeaways from the 2025 report.
🕒 46:14 – Advice for New Legal Professionals: Certifications, networking, and industry best practices.
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<p><strong>Podcast Episode Title</strong></p><p>🔍 <em>E-Discovery, AI, and the Future of Legal Tech: A Conversation with Dr. Maura Grossman</em></p><p><strong>Episode Description</strong></p><p>In this compelling episode of the <strong>NeLI Podcast</strong>, <strong>Daniel Gold</strong> and <strong>Brandon Mack</strong> sit down with the distinguished <strong>Dr. Maura Grossman</strong>, a visionary in e-discovery and AI in the legal space. Dr. Grossman shares insights from her pioneering work in <strong>Technology-Assisted Review (TAR) and Continuous Active Learning (CAL)</strong>, discusses the <strong>evolution of AI in the legal industry</strong>, and explores the <strong>challenges of AI-generated evidence in the courtroom</strong>. She also weighs in on <strong>how generative AI is reshaping discovery</strong> and <strong>the regulatory implications that courts must urgently address</strong>.</p><p>Whether you’re a legal professional, a technology enthusiast, or someone curious about the <strong>intersection of law and AI</strong>, this episode is packed with <strong>critical insights, thought-provoking discussions, and expert perspectives</strong>.</p><p>🎧 <strong>Tune in to hear:</strong></p><ul><li><p>The <strong>unexpected challenges</strong> Dr. Grossman faced while introducing CAL to the industry.</p></li><li><p>Why <strong>early TAR adoption was met with skepticism and economic pushback</strong>.</p></li><li><p>The <strong>potential pitfalls of generative AI in legal discovery</strong>.</p></li><li><p>How <strong>case law has evolved (or failed to evolve) alongside technological advancements</strong>.</p></li><li><p>Why courts and attorneys need to <strong>rethink digital evidence authentication</strong> in the AI era.</p></li><li><p>Dr. Grossman’s <strong>vision for the future of legal tech</strong> and the legacy she hopes to leave.</p></li></ul><p>💡 <strong>Resources Mentioned:</strong></p><p>📄<a href="https://jolt.richmond.edu/articles/technology-assisted-review-continuous-active-learning/" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>2011 Richmond Journal of Law & Technology Article on CAL</strong></a> – <em>Dr. Maura Grossman & Gordon Cormack’s seminal work introducing Continuous Active Learning (CAL) in e-discovery.</em></p><p>📄<a href="https://judicature.duke.edu/articles/ai-in-the-court-how-worried-should-we-be/" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>AI in the Court: How Worried Should We Be? (2024)</strong></a> – <em>Dr. Maura Grossman, Judge Paul Grimm, and others discuss the risks of AI-generated evidence in legal proceedings.</em></p><p>📄<a href="https://www.uscourts.gov/rules-policies/proposed-amendments-published-public-comment" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>Federal Rules of Evidence Advisory Committee Proposals on AI Evidence</strong></a> – <em>Latest updates on potential changes to the Federal Rules of Evidence addressing AI-generated evidence.</em></p><p>🔔 <strong>Don’t forget to subscribe</strong> to the NeLI Podcast for more <strong>expert insights on legal technology, AI, and e-discovery</strong>!</p><p>🎙 <strong>Follow Us:</strong></p><ul><li><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/102687352" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> LinkedIn</a></li><li><a href="https://twitter.com/neliconference" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> X (Twitter)</a></li><li><a href="https://www.instagram.com/neliconference/" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> Instagram</a></li><li><a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61559265399144" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> Facebook</a></li></ul>
Guest Details:
In this episode of Nellie Pod, hosts Daniel Gold and Braided Mac welcome Todd Itami, Director of Artificial Intelligence and Discovery Solutions at Covington Law Firm. Todd is a seasoned attorney and a recognized leader in AI and legal technology, specializing in integrating cutting-edge AI solutions into legal practice.
Key Takeaways:
Action Items:
Chapters with Timecodes:
[00:01:31] - Introduction of guest: Todd Itami, Covington Law Firm
[00:08:08] - Todd’s role in AI & eDiscovery solutions
[00:16:00] - How law firms are adopting AI and where the industry is headed
[00:26:22] - The inefficiencies of traditional eDiscovery and AI's role in solving them
[00:35:00] - The impact of better indexing and data retrieval on legal workflows
[00:44:30] - Practical roadmap for AI adoption in law firms
[00:57:20] - The importance of training lawyers in AI and technology
[01:05:00] - Why Todd believes this AI moment is different from past tech shifts
[01:20:40] - Final thoughts and the role of organizations like Nellie in AI education
Most Compelling Quote:
"I've yet to meet a lawyer who really digs into AI tools for 10 or 20 hours and then says, ‘Yeah, never mind.’ It’s just too valuable." – Todd Itami
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Tom Gricks, Managing Director of eDiscovery at OpenText, joins the podcast to discuss the evolution of Technology-Assisted Review (TAR), the legal industry's resistance to AI-driven workflows, and how Generative AI is reshaping document review. With a unique background in chemical engineering and law, Tom shares insights into the early battles over predictive coding, the transition from TAR 1.0 to TAR 2.0, and the future of AI-powered legal technology.
Key Takeaways
Action Items
✅ Understand Validation – If you’re using TAR or AI in eDiscovery, ensure robust validation measures to confirm accuracy and defensibility.
✅ Bridge the Knowledge Gap – Legal teams should collaborate with data scientists to understand machine learning models and optimize AI-assisted review.
✅ Prepare for the Future – AI-powered tools will continue to evolve, so firms must stay agile, incorporating AI alongside traditional methodologies rather than prematurely discarding proven tools.
Chapters with Timecodes
⏱ 00:02 – Introduction & Guest Welcome (Tom Gricks)
⏱ 00:06 – Tom’s Engineering-to-Law Journey: A Non-Traditional Path
⏱ 00:14 – The Early Days of eDiscovery & Predictive Coding Resistance
⏱ 00:24 – The Landmark Case That Introduced TAR to Courts
⏱ 00:35 – TAR 1.0 vs. TAR 2.0 – The Shift to Continuous Active Learning
⏱ 00:45 – Why Some Firms Still Resist TAR and What Needs to Change
⏱ 00:54 – Generative AI in eDiscovery: Is It the Next Big Thing or Overhyped?
⏱ 01:05 – The Future: AI + TAR for Maximum Efficiency
Most Compelling Quote
"Lawyers tend to be risk-averse, but what they don’t realize is that they got worse results before technology than they do with it. The challenge is not whether AI works—it’s whether we trust what we don’t understand." – Tom Gricks
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Podcast Show Summary
Guest DetailsJudge Andrew J. Peck, retired U.S. Magistrate Judge and Senior Counsel at DLA Piper, joins the podcast to discuss the evolution of eDiscovery, predictive coding, and the legal industry's slow adoption of technology.
Key TakeawaysThe Slow Adoption of TAR & AI – Despite landmark rulings endorsing predictive coding (TAR), the legal industry remains resistant to change, relying heavily on keyword searches instead of embracing newer, more efficient technologies.
Judicial Understanding & eDiscovery Challenges – Many judges are now more tech-savvy than the attorneys appearing before them, but the legal profession as a whole remains hesitant to incorporate advanced analytics, email threading, and AI-assisted review into their workflow.
The Future of Generative AI in eDiscovery – While AI holds immense promise, Judge Peck warns of potential "AI tax" concerns, where discovery disputes over prompts and validation could hinder adoption, much like early TAR battles.
📌 [00:00:02] – Introduction by hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack
📌 [00:01:32] – Welcome to Judge Andrew Peck
📌 [00:02:09] – Judge Peck’s history with the NeLI Conference
📌 [00:05:46] – The industry’s slow adoption of TAR and predictive coding
📌 [00:09:07] – Challenges with lawyer resistance to technology
📌 [00:15:15] – Expanding scope of eDiscovery: text messages, Slack, and hyperlinked documents
📌 [00:25:02] – The rise of generative AI in eDiscovery: promise & pitfalls
📌 [00:32:35] – The importance of validation and defensibility in AI-assisted review
📌 [00:37:04] – Future of AI in legal discovery and potential rule changes
📌 [00:42:05] – Advice for law students on embracing legal technology
📌 [00:44:50] – Closing remarks and upcoming Nellie Conference in 2025
"AI won’t replace lawyers, but lawyers who fail to embrace AI may find themselves replaced." – Judge Andrew J. Peck (Ret.)
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Podcast Show Summary
Guest Details:
Guest: Paul McVoy, Shareholder at Repario Data.
Key Takeaways:
Action Items:
Chapters with Timecodes:
Most Compelling Quote:
"If you can show me that you validated whatever process you're using, you could have kindergartners decide what you want to produce; validation makes all the difference."
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Guest Details
Mary Cooper, Vice President, Account Management at UnitedLex.
Key Takeaways
Action Items
Chapters with Timecodes
Most Compelling Quote
"I feel like eDiscovery is still one of those niche areas where when people ask what I do, I almost have to ask, 'Do you have 20 minutes?' It's such a cool, dynamic field that constantly evolves with new challenges and opportunities."
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Podcast Show Summary:
Guest Details:
Steve Davis, Vice President for Forensics and Education, Purpose Legal.
Key Takeaways:
1. Steve shared his journey from a federal investigator to leading forensics, emphasizing how investigations have evolved with digital tools.
2. The importance of understanding where data resides (residency) and ensuring that redundant backups exist to prevent data loss during investigations.
3. Steve discussed how the growing role of AI in legal tech and eDiscovery is evolving, but he remains cautious about AI's current capabilities in forensics.
Action Items:
1. When handling eDiscovery, prioritize identifying the end goal of the investigation before diving into the data.
2. Ask detailed questions about the devices and platforms involved to ensure accurate data collection, especially with mobile devices and third-party apps.
3. Ensure continuous education for your team on the latest technological advancements and forensic techniques to stay ahead in the field.
Chapters with Timecodes:
- [00:00] Introduction: Hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack introduce the show.
- [02:30] Guest Introduction: Steve Davis of Purpose Legal.
- [04:00] Background: Steve's journey from federal investigator to forensics expert.
- [10:30] Forensics in eDiscovery: Insights into data residency and redundancy.
- [18:45] AI and Forensics: Skepticism and potential future roles for AI in legal tech.
- [26:15] Corporate Data Handling: Common pitfalls and lessons for organizations.
- [35:50] Advice for Aspiring Forensics Professionals.
- [42:00] Conclusion: Closing thoughts and where to find Purpose Legal.
Most Compelling Quote:
"Humans are really average—we make mistakes all the time. But in forensics, solving problems requires more than just technical expertise; it’s about asking the right questions and understanding the end goal of the investigation."
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Guest Details:
Leah Bays, e-Discovery Attorney at Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd LLP, a plaintiff’s firm in San Diego that focuses on securities class actions, antitrust, and consumer fraud cases.
Key Takeaways:
1. Career Journey and Passion for Plaintiffs’ Work: Leah’s transition from the defense bar to the plaintiff’s side was driven by her desire to protect and advocate for those with less power, particularly against large corporations. Her work in e-discovery at Robbins Geller allows her to fight for justice, leveraging technology to find critical facts that shape her cases.
2. The Role of Process in e-Discovery: Leah emphasizes the importance of setting up robust e-discovery processes, including ESI protocols, to avoid disputes and ensure that discovery is handled efficiently and fairly. She believes in clear communication and the necessity of both sides understanding and respecting the process.
3. Challenges in the Plaintiff’s Bar: Unlike the defense side, plaintiffs rely entirely on the information provided by their opponents, often leading to a contentious and obstructive discovery process. Leah discusses the strategic advantages and unique challenges of working on the plaintiff’s side, including the need for thorough analysis and quick evaluation of received documents.
Action Items:
1. Develop Clear ESI Protocols: Attorneys should establish clear and detailed ESI protocols early in the discovery process to minimize disputes and streamline information exchange.
2. Foster Open Communication: Legal teams should focus on transparent and collaborative communication, explaining the rationale behind discovery requests to facilitate a more efficient and less adversarial process.
3. Invest in e-Discovery Education: Legal professionals, especially those in the plaintiff’s bar, should continue to enhance their knowledge and skills in e-discovery to effectively manage and utilize technology in their cases.
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The latest episode of NeLI Pod is here! On this episode, Daniel and Brandon sit down with Tessa Jacob, partner at Husch Blackwell in Kansas City. Tessa leads the firm's industry-leading eDiscovery Solutions team and has multiple awards and accomplishments in the field, including an appointment to a three-year term on the Sedona Conference's Working Group 1 Steering Committee. Listen to Tessa's insights on the present and future of e-discovery and her practical tips for attorneys on how to effectively and efficiently manage an e-discovery process. No matter your experience with e-discovery, you will find Tessa's remarks informative and inspiring!
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In this inaugural episode of NeLI Pod - the official podcast of the National eDiscovery Leadership Institute - join co-hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack as they welcome Robin Perkins, Partner at Kutak Rock and Founder of NeLI. As you'll hear in their discussion, Robin's passion for the eDiscovery field and especially for educating lawyers about the field is so strong that 10 years ago, she started a conference! The NeLI Conference 2024 will be September 19-20 in Kansas City. Robin also shares about her latest personal endeavor: buying a ranch!
Published 6/4/2024
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