Zach sits down with his mother Joe and his stepfather Otis to explore their journey from painful pasts to a peaceful present. Joe and Otis reflect on their “practice marriages,” the controlling dynamics they each endured, and the moment they realized they wanted something different. They share how a foundation of friendship, autonomy, and mutual respect became the bedrock of their 25-year relationship. From non-dating to dancing, from beach trips with girlfriends to golf trips alone, Joe and Otis have built a partnership that celebrates individuality and shared joy. You’ll hear about Otis’s journey of temper management, Joe’s reclaiming of personal agency, and the subtle, intentional kindness that keeps their love strong, despite physical pain, aging bodies, and the trials of real life. Key Takeaways There’s life after divorce—and it might be the better lifeBoth Joe and Otis came from long, controlling marriages. Their second partnership, formed later in life, is more respectful, equal, and full of joy. Friendship is the foundationTheir relationship began as school colleagues and friends, then grew over time into something deeper, supported by laughter, shared values, and trust. Kindness is the cornerstoneOtis says the best description of their marriage is that they’ve “learned to be very kind to one another.” The five-minute anger rule worksOtis, who struggled with rage in his youth, now uses a strategy where he’s allowed to be mad for five minutes, then lets it go. Joe even sets a timer. Agency mattersJoe talks about finally being able to “be herself” in this marriage, without fear, control, or pressure. Otis’s calm, non-controlling nature allows her space to thrive. Caregiving is mutual and meaningfulAs they age, they care for each other with intention and grace. Joe says she always knew Otis would take care of her, and she’s glad to do the same. Guest Info JoeZach’s mom. OtisZach’s stepdad and former high school gym teacher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices