What if love could guide you through anger, injustice, and even the darkest memories? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher reflect on how love, honesty, and contemplative practice can transform even deep wounds. They also respond to a listener’s question: how do we love those who cause harm—especially in politics? Brian and Carmen explore the tension between righteous anger and loving action, offering spiritual insights, personal stories, and practices that help us see with the eyes of love. Resources: Find the poem by Nikolai Velimirovich here Find the poem by Walter Brueggemann here

What would change if you could see with eyes of love—even in the face of cruelty, fear, and disagreement? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher sit down with renowned spiritual leader, legal advocate, and activist Sister Simone Campbell for a deeply honest conversation about love, justice, and compassion. They explore how contemplative practice grounds fierce activism, why listening is an act of love, and what it means to see even your political opponents with empathy. From her role in passing the Affordable Care Act to launching the "Nuns on the Bus" movement, Sister Simone shares moving stories of courage, community, and the Spirit’s surprising guidance—inviting us all into a new way of seeing and being. Resources: You can find a transcript for this episode here. Find Sr Simone Campbell's book Hunger for Hope here.

What would change if you believed that active, creative non-violence was the deepest expression of love? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher welcome legendary peace activist, Catholic priest, and author Fr. John Dear for an unflinching conversation about the cost—and the healing power—of universal non-violence. Together they explore how language shapes our discipleship, what it feels like to be seen with unconditional love, and why “live and stop the killing” may be the clearest way to describe love in action. Resources: Find out more about Fr. John Dear here. Find out more The Beatitudes Center for the Nonviolent Jesus: here. The transcript for this episode can be found here. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How might your life change if you paused more often to unlearn what fear has taught you? In this episode, hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher are joined by Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III. Together, they explore what it means to live with vision in times of struggle—when the path is unclear, but the call to truth and love remains strong. Drawing from his book Dancing in the Darkness, Dr. Moss reflects on the experience of being Black and faithful in America, and how reclaiming the radical tradition of love—rooted in justice and courage—can liberate both the oppressed and the oppressor. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be ⁠found here⁠.

How do ordinary moments become portals to the sacred?  On this episode of Learning How to See, Carrie Newcomer joins Brian and Carmen for a  conversation-and-concert that explores “short-form empathy,” the contemplative power of music, and the everyday practice of seeing, and being seen, through eyes of love. Along the way Carrie performs two beloved songs,  sharing the stories that shaped them, and Carmen invites listeners into a simple chant that can travel with us on morning walks or difficult days. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Listen to the song Start With a Stone inspired by CAC’s Daily Meditations and co-written with the legendary John McCutcheon ⁠here⁠ Find the song I Do Not Know It's Name here Find the song It's Always Love here To learn more about Carrie Newcomer and her work, check out her website here. To learn more about Carmen Acevedo Butcher, check our her website here. To learn more about Brian McLaren, check out his website here.

What happens to your own humanity when you choose to truly see the humanity in others? In this episode, Jesuit priest Father Rafael Garcia joins Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher to explore what it means to see through eyes of love—especially in a world that often teaches us to view immigrants, the incarcerated, and the marginalized with fear or indifference. Drawing from his work at the U.S.–Mexico border, his Cuban refugee roots, and stories of deep pastoral presence, Father Rafael shares how radical hospitality transforms both giver and receiver. Carmen reflects on her own awakening to shared humanity while serving in a women’s prison, paralleling Rafael’s shift from architectural comfort to spiritual solidarity. Together, they illuminate how true vision—grounded in Jesuit and Franciscan compassion—invites us not into pity, but into kinship and mutual transformation. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here.

What would change if you believed that grace was at the center of your life? In this episode, Brian and Carmen are joined by longtime friend and public theologian Nadia Bolz-Weber for a conversation about the radical, healing power of grace—and how it reshapes our vision of ourselves, others, and the divine. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. For information about Nadia, visit her website here.

In this opening to Season 8, Learning How to See returns with understanding how to see with the eyes of love. On this season, Brian McLaren introduces his new co-host Dr. Carmen Acevedo Butcher—a scholar, translator, contemplative teacher, and birdwatching chocolate lover—and together, they launch the theme for this season: Seeing Through Eyes of Love. This episode weaves together personal storytelling, embodied spiritual practice, and reflection to explore how love can transform the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world. Your Practice for the Week: Once a day, notice something you’re seeing with judgment or indifference. Pause. Shift your gaze to see it with the eyes of love. Then try to “telescope out”: See yourself seeing with love. See others doing the same. Envision Divine Love witnessing it all. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠ Resources & Mentions: The transcript for this episode can be found here. In this episode, Carmen referenced the following: Dorothee Sölle – Death by Bread Alone Howard Thurman – Mysticism and the Experience of Love Brother Lawrence – The Practice of the Presence of God Meister Eckhart – on the “eye within me” Brian referenced the following: Richard Rohr’s Cosmic Egg – a framework of nested stories: My Story, Our Story, The Story (This is located in his book, The Wisdom Pattern.) 1 Corinthians 13 – closing reading on the nature of love

Can we cultivate a relationship with the natural world which mirrors the care and concern we would offer a dear friend? How do you foster hope in the midst of an unruly world? In this conversation, Brian McLaren is prompted by CAC Staff members Corey Wayne and Mike Petrow, to reflect on his journey from pastor to writer and public speaker. Brian discusses the interconnectedness of nature and spirituality, the need for respect and boundaries in our relationship with the natural world, and the urgency of advocating for environmental issues in light of current political and ecological challenges. The three discuss the historical context of the Desert Fathers and Mothers, the inescapability of our current crises, and the various responses individuals have to these challenges (fight, flight, freeze, flock). They explore the importance of community and connection in times of despair, emphasizing the role of love and nature in cultivating hope and resilience. The discussion leaves us asking how we can be better friends to the earth and to each other amidst the complexities of modern life. Resources:  The transcript for this episode can be found here.  Brian's book, Life After Doom is referenced in this episode. Connect with us:  Email us: podcasts@cac.org  Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail 

How important is community in facing the climate crisis? What kinds of communities are helping you to live differently and find hope? In this episode, we’re learning to see nature through the eyes of a visionary. For this conversation, Brian McLaren is joined by Philip Clayton to discuss the urgent need for a shift in mindset, the transformative power of community, and the vital role of faith in building an ecological civilization. About the guest:  Philip Clayton is a renowned scholar whose work spans philosophy, theology, and science, with a particular focus on ecotheology, exploring the intersection of climate science, ethics, religion, and social philosophy. Holding the Ingraham Chair at Claremont School of Theology and directing the PhD program in comparative theologies and philosophies, he has also taught at prestigious institutions like Yale, Williams College, and Harvard, publishing extensively with over two dozen books and 350 articles. Beyond academia, Clayton is the President of the Institute for Ecological Civilization (EcoCiv.org), working internationally to promote sustainable solutions, and also heads the Institute for the Postmodern Development of China, advocating for ecological civilization through various initiatives. When not immersed in scholarly pursuits, he enjoys cycling, refereeing soccer, and spending time outdoors with his family and dog. Resources:  The transcript for this episode can be found here.  Two of Brian's books have been referenced heavily this season. You can check them out at the following links, Life After Doom and The Galapagos Islands. To learn more about Philip, check out his website here. Find out more about musician April Stace here.   Books mentioned during the interview: What is Ecological Civilization? by Philip Clayton and Andrew Schwartz The New Possible: Visions of Our World Beyond Crisis (Edited by Philip Clayton) Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson Eaarth by Bill McKibben Connect with us:  Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general?  Email us: podcasts@cac.org  Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail  We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024. 

How can you apply Indigenous values like harmony, respect, and accountability to your own life and community?  In this episode, we’re learning to see nature through the eyes of an Indigenous Person. For this conversation, Brian McLaren is joined by Randy and Edith Woodley to discuss the importance of rediscovering Indigenous values to create a more harmonious relationship with the Earth and all its inhabitants. Randy and Edith Woodley recently released their book, Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Lead Us to Harmony and Well-Being. About the guests:  Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley is an activist, scholar, author, teacher, wisdom-keeper, and Cherokee descendant recognized by the Keetoowah Band who speaks on justice, faith, the earth, and Indigenous realities. He is the author of numerous books, including Becoming Rooted and Shalom and the Community of Creation. He and his wife, Edith, co-sustain Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice and Eloheh Farm & Seeds outside Portland, Oregon. Edith Woodley is the cofounder and co-sustainer of Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice and Eloheh Farm & Seeds. She was raised on the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming and is a member of the Eastern Shoshone tribe. Woodley has a degree from Bacone College and mentors others in the spirituality of the land, farming methods, and seed-keeping. She is a leader in the Decolonizing with Badass Indigenous Grandmas cohort. She and her husband, Randy Woodley, have four grown children and six grandchildren. Resources:  The transcript for this episode can be found here.  Becoming Rooted by Randy Woodley was mentioned. You can find that here. Check out Randy and Edith Woodley’s new book, Journey to Eloheh here. Find out more about musician April Stace here.   Connect with us:  Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general?  Email us: podcasts@cac.org  Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail  We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024. 

 What might it look like to live out a Franciscan vision of kinship in your daily life?   In this episode, we’re learning to see nature through the eyes of a Franciscan. For this conversation, Brian McLaren is joined by Sr. Joan Brown and Michelle Dunne to explore the essence of Franciscan values and their relevance in today's world. They discuss the importance of community and kinship, translating faith into action, and the role of education and rituals in fostering a deeper connection with creation. This conversation underscores the need for collective action in addressing environmental challenges, the transformative power of prayer and contemplation, as well as confronting historical injustices and the call to embrace love and kinship in all aspects of life.  About the guests:  Michele Dunne OFS is a professed Secular Franciscan. Before coming to FAN, her career focused on the Middle East and U.S. foreign policy. From 2006 until 2021, she headed programs focused on peace, human rights, and democracy in the Middle East at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the Atlantic Council. Before that, she served for nearly 20 years in the U.S. Department of State, including assignments in Jerusalem and Cairo. She holds a Ph.D. from Georgetown University and lives in Washington DC with her husband.  Joan Brown is a Franciscan Sister from the Rochester, MN community, living and working in Albuquerque, New Mexico where she serves as the Executive Director of New Mexico Interfaith Power and Light (NM IPL). NM IPL is part of a national faith-based organization working to address climate justice. Originally from a small family farm in Kansas that still operates, her life has always revolved around love of and care for creation and social justice. Her BA from St. Mary College, Leavenworth, KS was in literature and journalism and she holds a master’s degree in Religion Philosophy and Cosmology from the California Institute of Integral Studies. Climate justice work has been a focus for decades and led her to participate with Franciscans International at UN COP meetings including Paris in 2015. She was one of twelve recipients of the 2015 Whitehouse Champions of Change award for faith leaders working on climate change. She has published articles and essays in national and local publications. Gardening, writing, baking (and sharing food), camping, hiking, community life, and contemplating and being with diverse kin in the natural world bring her joy, grounding and beauty.  Resources:  The transcript for this episode can be found here.  Brian referenced two of his books, Life After Doom and The Galapagos Islands.  Check out the Franciscan Justice Circles here.  Check out Sr. Joan’s work with New Mexico Interfaith Power and Light, here.  Check out the Franciscan Action Network (FAN) here.  Subscribe to the FAN Newsletter here.  Subscribe to the FAN Environmental Justice Newsletter here.  Find out more about the Doctrine of Discovery here Find out more about musician April Stace here.   Connect with us:  Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general?  Email us: podcasts@cac.org  Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail  We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024. 

What story do you tell yourself about the interconnectedness of nature and culture?  In this episode, we’re learning to see nature through the lens of a historian of religions. Brian McLaren is joined in conversation by Mary Evelyn Tucker, a leading voice in the field of religion and ecology. Together, they discuss the importance of cultural history, the challenges of interreligious dialogue, and the urgent need for a new story that integrates science and spirituality. They also explore the life and legacy of Thomas Berry, a visionary Catholic priest, who revolutionized our understanding of nature, culture, and the universe. Mary also shares her personal journey, her partnership with John Grim, and the profound impact of Berry’s teachings on her life.   About the guest:  Mary Evelyn Tucker is co-director with John Grim of the Yale Forum on Religion and Ecology. They are affiliated faculty with the Yale Center for Environmental Justice at the Yale School of the Environment. They organized 10 conferences on World Religions and Ecology at Harvard and were series editors for the 10 resulting volumes from Harvard. Her research area is Asian religions and she co-edited Confucianism and Ecology, Buddhism and Ecology, and Hinduism and Ecology.  Resources:  The transcript for this episode can be found here.  Brian referenced two of his books, Life After Doom and The Galapagos Islands.  Check out Journey of the Universe, Mary’s multimedia project with Brian Swimme here.  Check out Yale’s Forum on Religion and Ecology here.   Thomas Berry was mentioned significantly in this episode. You can learn more about him here.  Find out more about musician April Stace here.  Note: Brian refers to Dr. Tucker as a theologian in the episode, but she clarifies that she is actually a historian of world religions. Connect with us:  Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general?  Email us: podcasts@cac.org  Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail  We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024. 

What does it mean to grieve the crisis facing our planet?  In this episode, we’re learning to see nature through the lens of a mystic. Brian McLaren sits down with Douglas E. Christie to discuss his work in the emerging field of contemplative studies, its relevance to our current ecological crisis, and the importance of acknowledging and processing ecological grief. Together, they explore the historical and contemporary significance of contemplative practices and underscore their role in confronting the "dark night of the world", helping us to foster a deeper connection with the Earth.  About the guest:  Douglas E. Christie, Ph.D. is Professor Emeritus of Theological Studies at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. He is the author of The Word in The Desert: Scripture and the Quest for Holiness in Early Christian Monasticism, The Blue Sapphire of the Mind: Notes for a Contemplative Ecology, and The Insurmountable Darkness of Love: Mysticism, Loss, and the Common Life. He has been awarded fellowships from the Luce Foundation, the Lilly Foundation and the National Endowment for the Humanities. From 2013-2015 he served as Co-director of the Casa de la Mateada study abroad program in Córdoba, Argentina, a faith-based program rooted in the Jesuit vision of education for solidarity. He lives with his family in Los Angeles.  Resources:  The transcript for this episode can be found here.  Brian referenced two of his books, Life After Doom and The Galapagos Islands.  Douglas referenced his books:  The Blue Sapphire of the Mind: Notes for a Contemplative Ecology, which you can find here.  And, The Insurmountable Darkness of Love: Mysticism, Loss, and the Common Life, which you can find here.  To learn more about Douglas, visit his website here.  Find out more about musician April Stace here.  Connect with us:  Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general?  Email us: podcasts@cac.org  Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail  We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024. 

What is it about poetry that allows it to hold both beauty and disruption, and even inspire change?  In this episode, Brian McLaren explores the power of poetry to help us understand and grieve for the natural world while also appreciating its beauty. He talks with poets Pádraig Ó Tuama and Drew Jackson about the importance of seeing nature holistically, and how poetry can help us grapple with the tension between destruction and renewal. The episode explores how poems can inspire action and change and encourages you, the listener, to write your own poems, especially haiku, to practice seeing nature differently. About the guests: Drew Jackson is a poet, speaker, and public theologian. He is author of God Speaks Through Wombs: Poems on God’s Unexpected Coming and Touch the Earth: Poems on The Way. His work has appeared in Oneing from the Center for Action and Contemplation, The Isolation Journals with Suleika Jaouad, Made for Pax, The Journal from the Centre for Public Christianity, Fathom Magazine, and other publications. Drew received his B.A. in Political Science from the Univ. of Chicago and his M.A. in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. He currently works as the Director of Mission Integration for the Center for Action and Contemplation, and lives in Brooklyn, NY with his wife and daughters. Pádraig Ó Tuama is a poet and a theologian from Ireland whose poetry and prose centre around themes of language, power, conflict and religion. His work has won acclaim in circles of poetry, politics, psychotherapy and conflict analysis. His formal qualifications (PhD, MTh and BA) cover creative writing, literary criticism and theology. Alongside this, he pursued vocational training in conflict analysis, specialising in groupwork. His published work is in the fields of poetry, anthology, essay, memoir, theology and conflict. A new volume of poetry — Kitchen Hymns — is forthcoming from CHEERIO in mid 2024.  Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Brian referenced two of his books, Life After Doom and The Galapagos Islands. Pádraig referenced A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth, you can find that here. Pádraig referenced Thinking With Trees by Jason Allen-Paisant, you can find that here. Drew referenced How Can Black People Write About Flowers at a Time Like This by Hanif Abdurraqib, you can find that here. To learn more about Pádraig, visit his website here. To learn more about Drew, visit his website here. Find out more about musician April Stace here. For instructions on how to compose Haiku, visit here. Connect with us: Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general? Email us: podcasts@cac.org Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024.

How does nature inspire your sense of creativity? On this episode, we’re looking at nature through the artistic lens, with Brian McLaren and two gifted photographers, Christy Berghoef and Thomas Jay Oord. The conversation explores the ways in which their individual experiences and practices of photography have deepened their understanding and appreciation of the natural world, as well as the power of photography to inspire a deeper connection to the earth. About the guests: Dr. Christy Berghoef is a civil dialogue consultant, singer/songwriter, author, speaker, mother of four and church planting partner with her husband Bryan in the United Church of Christ. Much of her work and writing has centered around the intersection of faith & politics and nature & the human condition. Thomas Jay Oord, Ph.D. is a theologian, philosopher, and scholar of multi-disciplinary studies. Oord directs the Center for Open and Relational Theology and doctoral students at Northwind Theological Seminary. He is an award-winning author and has written or edited more than thirty books. A gifted speaker, Oord lectures at universities, conferences, churches, and institutions. He is known for his contributions to research on love, science and religion, open and relational theology, the problem of suffering, and advocacy for the full inclusion of queer people. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Brian referenced two of his books, Life After Doom and The Galapagos Islands. Christy referenced her Substack, you can check that out here. She also posts regularly on her Instagram account. Thomas referenced his website, you can check that out here. Additionally, we wanted to link you to the Center for Open and Relational Theology here. Find out more about musician April Stace here. Connect with us: Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general? You can contact via two methods and we may feature your question on a listener questions episode later in the season. Email us: podcasts@cac.org Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024.

How do you typically see your relationship with nature? In this bonus episode, Brian interviews Felicia Murrell, author of And: The Restorative Power of Love in an Either/Or World. This conversation delves into the interconnectedness of humans and nature, exploring how a shift from domination to loving interaction can lead to a deeper understanding and appreciation of the natural world. Felicia Murrell, a gifted writer and poet, as well as Living School alumna, shares her personal journey of recognizing the sacredness of the earth and how this awareness has transformed her view of the world. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. To learn more about Felicia, visit her website here. The poem of Felicia's Brian references, How Is The Earth Speaking To You?, can be found here. Felicia's new book And: The Restorative Power of Love in an Either/Or World can be found here. Brian's latest book, Life After Doom can be found here and wherever books are sold.

How do you think our personal beliefs and values shape the way we see the world? In this episode, as we continue to explore the theme of learning to see nature as a gardener, Brian explores the concept of worldviews with futurist Cassidy Steele Dale. They delve into the "Knight" and "Gardener" perspectives, examining how these contrasting ways of seeing the world impact our relationships, our faith, and our approach to global challenges. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. The Knight and the Gardener: The e-book is available here. Combat Theology: Cassidy's e-book exploring how religious strain can turn toxic and how to undo that process is available here. Think Future: Cassidy's Substack, where he shares insights about the future can be found here. Life After Doom: The new book by Brian McLaren can be found here and wherever books are sold.

What if the way we see nature could be the key to a more sustainable future?  In this two-part series, we're turning to see nature as a gardener. In this conversation, Brian speaks with two of his children, Brett and Rachel McLaren, about their love for nature and gardening. They discuss their childhood memories of exploring and appreciating the natural world, the joy and importance of gardening, the value of diversity in plants, and the challenges of restoration and preservation. They also explore how their experiences with nature have changed their perspective on the world and their role as caretakers of the earth. About Brett: Brett McLaren is the Chief Strategy Officer of MetaPhase Consulting. Brett is responsible for overseeing business development, strategic partnerships, development of corporate capabilities, marketing, and proposal operations activities. Prior to MetaPhase, Brett supported large scale federal IT programs at federal consulting firms including Booz Allen Hamilton and CGI. He holds a B.A. in Computer Information Systems from James Madison University and an MBA from Georgetown University. He is a PMI-Certified Project Management Professional, and holds Agile SCRUM and Change Management Advanced Practitioner (CMAP) certifications. Outside of work, Brett enjoys trying new ethnic food, fishing, the outdoors, and coaching soccer. About Rachel: Dr. Rachel McLaren is an associate professor in the Communication Studies Department at the University of Iowa. Rachel’s social-scientific research revolves around the exploration of how individuals navigate and derive meaning from significant experiences within their relationships, encompassing various facets such as conflict resolution, handling transgressions, and managing emotions. Her recent work has focused on sense-making and conflict in parent-adolescent relationships. You can find links to her research articles here. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. To learn more about Rachel's work, visit her website here.

How does time in nature benefit you? In this episode, Brian is in conversation with James White, Tony Jones, and Wes Granberg-Michaelson exploring the experiences and perspectives of those who have awe-inspiring experiences with the transformative power of being in nature. Together, they reflect on the meaning of fishing and hunting, the connection to our ancestral roots, the contrast between the ordered structures of human society and the wildness of nature and the role each plays in protecting and preserving the natural environment. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. To learn more about James White, visit his website here. To learn more about Tony Jones, visit his website here. To learn more about Wes Granberg-Michaelson, visit his website here.