In this episode of Leading Complexity, hosts Tomas Björkholm and Michael Göthe dive into self-organizing organizations with Doug Kirkpatrick, former CFO of Morningstar. Doug shares insights on how traditional bureaucratic structures, born out of the Industrial Revolution, are no longer effective in today's fast-moving world. Instead, he champions the power of simple rules to unlock intelligent, complex behaviors—rather than the rigid, inefficient systems we often see in organizations today. As Tomas and Michael listen to the interview, they highlight key moments, discuss why bureaucratic structures persist, and explore practical examples of self-management in action. They also reflect on the legacy of Dee Hock, the visionary behind Visa and the concept of "chaordic" organizations. If you're curious about how to lead in complexity, navigate bureaucracy, and foster agility, this episode is for you! Join the conversation and share your thoughts in the comments. Don't forget to check out more episodes at http://leadingcomplexity.com/podcast/.