In this episode, Christopher Hobson speaks with David Cayley, who spent much of his career producing long-form radio programs for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. As part of this work, Cayley recorded a series of interviews with Ivan Illich, whose thinking on the way that technologies are reshaping people, as well as his acute critiques of major societal institutions, have been rediscovered in recent years. In 2021, Cayley published, Ivan Illich: An Intellectual Journey, which explores the life and work of this powerful thinker. This conversation with Cayley circles around some big issues present in his work and Illich’s, including the role of science in society, how to think about technology, the importance of limits, surprise, the pandemic, and much more. For more information, visit imperfectnotes.substack.com and christopherhobson.net. This episode has been produced with support from a grant by the Toshiba International Foundation.