In this conversation, David J Bland and Michael Clifford discuss the intersection of habitat design, conservation, and design thinking. 

Michael shares his unique journey from zookeeper to strategy director for Reverse the Red, a global coalition aimed at halting species extinction. 

They explore the importance of challenging assumptions in habitat design, the role of observation in understanding animal behavior, and the need for context-specific strategies in conservation efforts. 

The conversation emphasizes the significance of collaboration, the necessity of creating environments conducive to desired outcomes, and the value of indigenous knowledge in addressing biodiversity loss.