In this episode, hosts Jamilya Kamalova and Eugene Leventhal sit down with Rafael Fernández and Shelby Steidl from ZK Sync to unpack one of the most forward-thinking governance frameworks in Web3 today. Rafa is a Director and Governance Lead at the ZKsync Association, where he supports protocol governance design, token mechanics, and operations. His work spans the entire governance system design, from contracts, to legal architecture for regulatory alignment, and scalable processes for decentralization. He brings a background in organizational design and analytics to help ZKsync evolve governance into public infrastructure—credible, composable, and built for the long term. Based in Berlin, he's always ready to share stories of niche too-online lore and previous research on digital swarms. Shelby is the Governance Experience Lead for ZKsync Governance. She is responsible for all things governance UX, resource management & creation, Delegate coordination, and supports with token mechanics development for Token Programs. She previously worked on governance at Radworks (RadicleDAO), bringing 3 years of gov ops experience to help launch and cultivate the ZKsync governance system. Shelby enjoys flat whites, a groovy house beat, and contributing to the grand experiment that is decentralized governance.From their personal journeys into blockchain governance to the challenges of designing systems that balance decentralization with accountability, Rafa and Shelby share the ideas that shaped ZK Sync’s approach. We dive into their use of the Austrian Association model to provide liability protection through opt-in legal membership, the design of a three-body governance system (Token Assembly, Security Council, Guardians), and the importance of creating governance environments that foster participation, mission alignment, and cultural integrity. The discussion goes deep into the mechanics, exploring ZK Sync’s capped minter system and modular token mechanics that enable on-demand minting while embedding safeguards, accountability, and legal enforceability through ZK GPS. The guests share how these systems prevent abuse, measure performance, and keep governance adaptable without sacrificing trustlessness. From DAO evolution and mission-centered safeguards to performance metrics and the future of decentralized decision-making, this conversation offers practical insights for protocol founders, DAO contributors, and governance researchers alike. Whether you’re building in crypto or studying the intersection of blockchain and law, this is a rare look at how to design governance that is as resilient as it is innovative — and why the future may be all about simplifying complexity. Some of the papers we mentioned during the conversation:- "The Swarm and the Formation" by Rafael Fernández https://summerofprotocols.com/research/the-swarm-and-the-formation - "ZK Nation docs": https://docs.zknation.io/voting-and-delegation/zksync-governance-101#how-are-token-allocation-through-governance-different-at-zksync-than-other-onchain-organizations.Timestamps 00:00 Intro & Teaser 02:57 Origins of Governance in Blockchain 05:37 The Role of Environment in Governance Design 08:22 Creating Safe Spaces for Governance Discussions 11:01 Understanding the Waters of Governance 14:03 The Evolution of DAO Governance Models 16:46 Legal Structures in Governance: The Austrian Association 19:38 ZK Sync's Unique Governance Framework 22:27 On-Chain Enforceability and Accountability 24:57 Mission-Centered Governance and the Role of Guardians 39:58 Guardians and Their Role in Governance 42:16 Decentralized Governance Structure 50:34 Capped Minters and Token Governance 01:00:27 Safeguards and Accountability in Minting Rights 01:04:52 Measuring Governance Performance 01:11:23 The Future of Governance 01:14:00 Quick Fire Quiz - One Word & Conclusion