In this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones sits down with pastor and author Jack Haberer to discuss his new book, Swimming With the Sharks: Leading the Full Spectrum Church in a Red-and-Blue World. As political polarization increasingly shapes—and often divides—American congregations, Jack brings hard-earned wisdom, theological depth, and pastoral sensitivity to the challenge of leading churches across ideological lines.

Drawing from decades of ministry in diverse settings, Jack shares real-world stories, practical insights, and a hopeful vision for what it means to shepherd a church that refuses to split down party lines. The conversation explores how pastors can stay rooted in the gospel while navigating cultural landmines, how churches can become spaces of faithful disagreement and spiritual growth, and why unity doesn’t have to mean uniformity.

Whether you’re a church leader, a congregant, or just someone curious about faith in a polarized age, this episode offers honest reflections and tangible guidance for engaging the tension with grace and courage.

Listen in and discover how to swim with the sharks—and lead with love.

Special Guest: Jack Haberer .