It is our favourite time of the month. Jane and Jason take on the mega orderering listeners’ questions – focussing mostly on the Middle East, the Trump-Putin summit, and any rays of ordering hope that might be on the horizon. They look at the unlikely role of UN peacekeeping forces in the West Bank, whether the UK, Australia, and France recognising Palestinian Statehood would help anything, and ways to unblock potential pathways to peace in Gaza. Plus: why Trump wants his summit with Putin, the increasing role of disinformation in democracies and finally, as always we try to Order the Disorder by offer some rays hope as to where there could be some Order in our mad mad mad mad world. Jason proposes that people power might be the answer and teasers his forthcoming book project. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ And Join the paid substack to hear Jason’s story about Israelis behaving badly in Monaco and how it is a metaphor for their isolation globally and the resentment that that breeds. Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Listen to Jason on BBC Radio Five Live (from 45:40) https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002gzxy  Read The Limits of Recognition - The Atlantic https://apple.news/AX2K3dnwnQBy2oE9J40g7Eg  The New York declaration of the recent UN conference on a two-state solution in Israel Palestine https://press.un.org/en/2025/pal2250.doc.htm  Read Russia and Ukraine must seek a proper framework for talks, says Juan Manuel Santos https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2025/07/25/russia-and-ukraine-must-seek-a-proper-framework-for-talks-says-juan-manuel-santos  Read How to End the Russia-Ukraine War by Thomas Graham https://www.cfr.org/article/how-end-russia-ukraine-war  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Like it or not, Trump and his surreal version of a libertarian patrimonial America is reshaping the world. At least in what the FT’s Janan Ganesh dubs “the high summer of Donald Trump”. I teamed up with Andrew Keen of the ‘Keen On America’ Podcast to discuss Big Tech and the need for Big Government to regulate it. Andrew thinks Government and international treaties can’t be the answer. I disagree thinking that they can.  I argued that while Trump may be achieving tactical wins through short-term disruptions—from ending the Iran-Israel conflict to forcing favorable trade negotiations—this approach fundamentally undermines the strategic international coordination needed to address existential challenges like AI regulation, climate change, and systemic economic and military competition with China. Without coherent global governance structures, I predict, we're sleepwalking into a long-term disordered world where private tech giants wield more power than governments themselves. Trump’s high summer of disorder could degenerate into an apocalyptic winter of our collective discontent. As we Ordered the Disorder, I advocated for a Missing "NATO for AI" arguing that we desperately need international coordination structures to govern AI development, data storage, and energy infrastructure. Without treaty-based cooperation among democracies, we're ceding control to either authoritarian regimes or unaccountable private companies. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Listen to Keen On America especially about how AI and Big Tech is reshaping today’s geopolitical fault lines: https://podcasts.apple.com/sa/podcast/ai-is-too-busy-to-take-your-job-the-electrifying/id1710656849?i=1000719075185  Explore the Keen On Substack: https://substack.com/@keenon?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Ukraine and Russia master new forms of drone warfare, are NATO and Europe being left behind? Is the West willfully clinging to older 20th century ways of equipping and preparing for war? In this episode, Arthur Snell is joined by Matthew Savill, the Director of Military Sciences at RUSI. They focus on developments and trends in contemporary conflict and investigate new trends in the use of force in the mid-21st Century. The duo discuss Ukraine's rapid innovation in drone technology, the challenges NATO faces in integrating the newer forms of air power with its ground forces, Britain’s lack of preparedness at the Corp level, and the shifting dynamics of US commitment to NATO.  And as they Order the Disorder, Matthew expresses a need for European countries to enhance their military capabilities and boost overall readiness – and the need to spend large amounts of money to achieve those objectives. This episode is truly a master class in the dynamics of modern warfare that many consumers of news will miss beyond the headlines. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: For more on our RUSI partnership visit: https://www.rusi.org/podcast-series/disorder-podcast  Watch Is Trump losing MAGA over Epstein? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEiX7chStSY  Watch Jason Pack play in the Final of the World Championship of Speedgammon:  https://youtu.be/Z8Nk_5V8RXM?si=NTUhPU-Z_ghhakne Follow Arthur’s Behind the Lines Pod: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell/id1704344656  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For as long as there’s been wars and diplomacy, there have been spies. Some call it the world’s second oldest profession. But from their peak during the Cold War until now have the West’s spying capabilities declined? And how is spying and subterfuge being used in the Ukraine War? As part of our partnership with the New Books Network, Jason is joined this week by former MI-6 agent, Charles Beaumont. Charles is the pseudonym author of the bestselling spy thriller, ‘A Spy at War.’ He and Jason discuss the current scope of influence operations in the context of the Ukraine War. They discuss how Kyiv was a nest of spies at the start of that War and why the Russian intelligence agents got it all wrong when they thought that Kyiv was theirs for that taking. They also delve into the historical and contemporary roles of intelligence in shaping the politics of the post-Soviet space, the effectiveness of Western intelligence agencies, and the moral complexities of espionage. And as they Order the Disorder – they discuss the need for stronger soft power by Britain, and the idea for the UN to develop its own intelligence agency. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Buy A Spy at War - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spy-War-Oxford-Ring-espionage/dp/1804364800  Read Jason’s review of A Spy at War - https://www.thecipherbrief.com/book-review/when-espionage-meets-tiktok  New Books Network - https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It’s that time of the month (ha), as we take listener questions!  Jason and Jane discuss why the Epstein scandal WILL genuinely hurt Trump with his conspiracy loving base, the complexities of the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent, the multilateralism of any new Iran nuclear deal, the implications of blowback from Trump's conspiratorial scaremongering, and if the Russians have the ability to escalate the ongoing conflict in Ukraine or if they are ‘maxed out’.  Plus we handle eloquent verbiage from very verbose mega-orderers’ questions: we revisit why neopopulists like Trump are thin skinned and can be hoist on the petards of the own rhetoric, cognitive biases affecting political decision-making, the role of psychology in diplomacy, the future of US-Canada relations and the tragic humanitarian crisis in Gaza. As Jane and Jason Order the Disorder, as always, they end emphasizing the need for innovative win-win solutions to these multifaceted challenges. As always pls write us at Disordershow@gmail.com and pls rate and review the pod giving us 5 stars... Thanks Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack for exclusive question from Suzette about the Druze in Syria and the historic resonances of Israel’s interventions on behalf of the Druze - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Jason on the Epstein Scandal and why it exposes Trump’s hypocrisy to his own supporters in ways that his other nefarious actions do not: https://metro.co.uk/2025/07/24/donald-trumps-epstein-files-problem-wont-go-away-will-next-23741815/  Good background on the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent - https://www.chathamhouse.org/2025/03/uks-nuclear-deterrent-relies-us-support-there-are-no-other-easy-alternatives  Letter to the Prime Minister calls for the UK to recognise Palestinian statehood - https://una.org.uk/letter-prime-minister-calls-uk-recognise-palestinian-statehood-4  Listen to our episode with Marcel Dirsus: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/bcd89a117331e217c82af1d018e28d9e  Get Marcel’s book at https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/marcel-dirsus/how-tyrants-fall/9781399809481/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We’ve heard about Putin bluffing. Abraham Lincoln was an accomplished poker player and Churchill dabbled at chess. But to our mind it is Backgammon that best reflects both politics and life decisions. It’s a game of skill, luck, reversals and socializing. So could world leaders use Backgammon to help them develop their empathy, strategic thinking, resilience, and make better decisions? In this conversation, Jason Pack is joined by Marc Olsen – fellow Backgammon Grandmaster, former professional footballer, and the CEO and Founder of Backgammon Galaxy. Together they explore the multifaceted world of Backgammon. They unpack how it is a metaphor for life, decision-making, and the balance between order and disorder.  They discuss Marc's journey from professional football to becoming the CEO of Backgammon Galaxy, the conformism of Scandinavian society, and how a rebellious nature led Marc to discover Austrian school economics. Plus: the emotional aspects of learning through games, the relevance of game theory in the Enduring Disorder, and the unique features of Backgammon that make it a rich learning experience. And as they Order they Disorder – how Backgammon can foster empathy and social skills, and the potential of Backgammon as a tool for cross-cultural connection, especially in the Middle Eastern region. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/  To watch the 2024 World Backgammon Championship Final commentated by Marc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7-ky1bROk  For a very fun video produced by Marc and featuring Jason about the World Backgammon Championship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebkgCNS7OI  For Marc on the Gentleman Scofflaw podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gentleman-scofflaw-podcast/id1216891117?i=1000650103880  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Each time someone wants to become a British Citizen, they have to pass the ‘Life In The UK’ Test. The aspiring Britisher (such as Jason) might hope that this test would be comprised of a series of questions that would highlight Britain’s role as a global orderer, help prospective citizens understand the intricacies of British queuing culture and provide insights into how to pay council tax, or get on the ballot for Wimbledon tickets… but in reality: the test is about as Disorderly as the world is currently. In this episode, Jane and Jason discuss the intricacies and absurdities of Jason’s experience taking the Life in the UK test. Jason quizzes Jane on what he was made to learn about the supposed essentials of British life, with questions such as: what is a Welsh cake made from? Who won against the Vikings? And ‘what many of crosses compose the Union Flag? [sic]’  And on a serious note, they discuss the very special intellectual contribution of Scots to global civilization and –as they Order the Disorder – they talk about whether Britain can be a convening power – and a genuine Mega Orderer in the mid 21st century world. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Recipe for Welsh cakes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/welsh_cakes_16706  Can YOU pass a UK citizenship test? Brits joke they 'better pack their bags' after struggling to answer the general knowledge questions:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-14849235/Can-YOU-pass-UK-citizenship-test-Brits-joke-better-pack-bags-struggling-answer-general-knowledge-questions.html  More than half of the population are unable to pass the UK citizenship test - but how well would YOU do?  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13584185/more-than-half-of-the-population-are-unable-to-pass-the-uk-citizenship-test-but-how-well-would-you-do.html  Wha’s like us? Damn few’ and they’re A’ deid: https://www.robbiemactours.co.uk/whas-like-us-damn-few-and-theyre-a-deid/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The UN is demonstrably powerless in Gaza; unable to facilitate elections in Libya; and blocked by Russia from doing anything meaningful on major issues, like Ukraine, Climate Change, Tarriffs, or the Arctic. Is International Diplomacy Dead? Where is the UN in pushing back against Trump? Is there any way that countries can finally put their differences aside on major divisive issues -- like Ukraine and Gaza -- but work together on other more unifying ones – like kleptocracy and climate change – and finally Order the Disorder? To find out, Jason is joined by Stephanie Williams – Former top United Nations mediator and a senior American diplomat. Stephanie served as the Special Adviser to the Secretary General on Libya, as well as acting UN SRSG/Special Envoy to Libya. She is the author of an excellent and highly detailed new book on international diplomacy, ‘Libya Since Qaddafi: Chaos and the Search for Peace’. As with Jason’s own book, Stephanie’s is with Hurst/OUP, by far the best publishers of cutting edge books on Libya.  The duo delve into the effectiveness of the UN and the international community in addressing global conflicts, particularly focusing on Libya. Plus they tackle: the complexities of state building, the Disordering influence of Russia on the operations of the UN, the impact of US foreign policy on Libya, and why incoherence and coordination complexities within the West makes it nearly impossible to do diplomacy anymore. And as they Order the Disorder, Jason and Stephanie propose genuine things Steve Witkoff and others can do to formulate a more unified approach to major issues of the day. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Get Stephanie Williams’ book, Libya Since Qaddafi: Chaos and the Search for Peace - https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/libya-since-qaddafi/  Get Jason’s book Libya and the Global Enduring Disorder - https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/libya-and-the-global-enduring-disorder/  Watch Why Regime Change in Iran is Impossible - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlX5_mp1JWc   Listen back to Ep4. Who is leading the disorder? https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/9ebdc18174d18cb019d148053a98e287  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In his roll as UK Foreign Secretary, David Lammy has often talked of his concept of progressive realism, but what does that mean? And how has that impacted British foreign policy over the past 12 months? In this episode of Disorder, Alex Hall Hall and Arthur Snell delve into the complexities of British diplomacy over the past year – offering a grade point for each area of British foreign policy. They assess the UK's relationships with the US and EU, the implications of NATO and defense strategies, their dealings with Ukraine amidst the ongoing conflict with Russia and the government's response to the humanitarian crisis in the Middle East.  To close – and Order the Disorder – the pair express the need for a clearer vision in foreign policy, greater engagement with the Global South, and a clearer moral backbone from Starmer and co. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Read ‘Keir Starmer Has Missed His Chance to Make a Bold Break With the Past on Foreign Policy’ by Alex Hall Hall: https://bylinetimes.com/2025/06/27/labour-foreign-policy-report-card/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Alex’s final episode as an official cohost, she and Jason reflect on just how disordered the world has become since the pod started in 2023. They lament the loss of sane American global leadership during that time, the challenges faced by centrist politicians, and unpack the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. They express the need for moral courage and moral clarity in politics. As they Order the Disorder – they talk about the need to use your unique voice to shine a light on what can be done to make politics work better. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Watch Why the UK should mediate between Trump, Bibi, and the Ayatollahs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQb1oXFBh4 Watch Why Regime Change in Iran is Impossible - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlX5_mp1JWc Read about Georgia’s struggle for democracy and slide into authoritarianism and how it mirrors our own in the USA: https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/06/08/i-was-not-fierce-enough-georgian-activists-brutal-confession-as-democracy-collapses/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Alex’s penultimate episode as an official Disorder cohost, she and Jason discuss her decision to step back from co-hosting due to the overwhelming chaos in the world and the emotional toll it takes. Plus: they unpack the struggle to maintain empathy in a disordered world, the rising fear of deportation, cancellation, political violence, censorship, enemies lists, and their implications for democracy. And – as they Order the Disorder – they look at the importance of maintaining professional integrity, while dealing with emotional challenges. They also explore strategies for coping with the chaos of modern life. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Read about Georgia’s struggle for democracy and slide into authoritarianism and how it mirrors our own in the USA: https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/06/08/i-was-not-fierce-enough-georgian-activists-brutal-confession-as-democracy-collapses/ Watch Why Regime Change in Iran is Impossible - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlX5_mp1JWc Read ‘Donald Trump’s Los Angeles Military Deployment Is an Assault on American Democracy’ - https://bylinetimes.com/2025/06/10/donald-trump-los-angeles-military-deployment-assault-on-american-democracy/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Lenin apparently never said, ‘There Are Decades Where Nothing Happens and Weeks Where Decades Happen’. We are clearly living through the latter. Arthur and Jason attempt to untangle the latest: from the Iranian attack on the US airbase in Qatar to Trump’s declaration of forever peace to end what he is cleverly calling the 12 Day War. Arthur and Jason rally in violent unity for Mega Ordering -- whether you advocated for Obama’s ‘Iran Deal’ or supported Trump’s tearing it to shreds, whether you love Benjamin Netanyahu or think he is an evil genius, whether you supported Trump’s Beautiful Bunker Busting against Fordow or see it as an illegal and reckless gamble, all sane centrists must now advocate for Western unity in ending the wars in Gaza and Iran. The power balance of the Middle East has been fundamentally reconfigured. It is uniquely favourable for peace. As Arthur and Jason try to Order the Disorder, they discuss if the Europeans can help get us there and why Bibi appears hellbent on spoiling his own achievements. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Iran fires missiles at US base in Qatar, Trump calls for peace: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-weighs-retaliation-against-us-strikes-nuclear-sites-2025-06-23/ Watch How The Iran Israel War Could End - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fymBJbsBDfI  Arthur’s excellent substack Time to learn about Iran's separatist movements: https://substack.com/home/post/p-166505834    And our Substack, Were the Iranians forewarned? why are the markets so placid? What happens if Hormuz is closed? https://natoandtheged.substack.com/publish/posts/detail/166535764?referrer=%2Fpublish%2Fhome  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Trump promised to end the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, yet here we are – months later – and seemingly no real progress has been made towards peace in either regions. In the meantime, Trump and co were also seeking deals across the Middle East, including a new nuclear deal with Iran. How did that go? It ended in full scale War! Is the Art of the Deal dead? Is Trump a fool? Or is he more of a master negotiator than is immediately apparent? Did he actually manipulate the Iranians in a way that Biden never could have? To discuss this – and the intricate relationship between human psychology and the politics of negotiations – Jason was joined on June 10 by Ken Dekleva. A former senior US Dept of State physician-diplomat, CEO of Blackwood Advisory Solutions LLC, and Author of The Russian Diplomat’s Wife. Ken and Jason discuss the role of human psychology in Trump’s negotiations involving Ukraine, Russia, and Iran. Plus: they unpack the influence of Steve Witkoff within Trump’s inner circle, the complexities of negotiations in the Middle East – and whether Team Trump is likely to get any sort of deal with powers like Iran who wish to appear uncompromising. Listening to this discussion post Israeli Attack on Iran is actually super interesting as it shows the interplay btw negotiations and war in that region. And as they Order the Disorder, they touch on the future of U.S.-China relations in the context of AI and global power dynamics, and the need for a strategic approach to negotiations. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Get Ken’s Book, The Russian Diplomat’s Wife - https://www.thecipherbrief.com/book-review/i-spy-a-love-story Listen to our previous episode with Ken - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/94c9f3ec23902d3f606bffb43dc39928  Watch Does NATO Have A Future? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ouF6cVUJjY  Read profile of Steve Witkoff https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/05/steve-witkoff-putin-russia-ukraine-diplomat/682805/  Read Arthur Snells Substack on the Ukraine drone attack - https://arthursnell.substack.com/p/operation-spiders-web-opening-pandoras?utm_source=substack&utm_campaign=post_embed&utm_medium=web  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the weekend, waves of missiles were launched back and forth by Iran and Israel – killing civilians, damaging oil refineries, and causing tremendous humanitarian disaster. Iran willy nilly lobbed bombs at population centres while the Israelis targeted key bits of infrastructure. In either case, the international community stood by – seemingly unable to stop the Disorder. So what can be done? In this episode, Jason Pack and Jane Kinninmont recap the weekend’s events – exploring what role the key international actors like, Trump, the G7, or India can play in providing an off ramp. Jane and Jason discuss the contradictions in Trump’s stance, the role of the G7 and India as potential mediators, and the risks associated with a full regime change in Iran. Plus: could Israel actually lose this war or its population tire of being confined to bomb shelters at night?  Then as they Order the Disorder, Jane and Jason provide their predictions on how it all might end. They disagree agreeably on whether Israel’s war aims of destroying the enrichment facility at Fardow now need to be achieved first or if it is possible to go back to the negotiating table directly. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Sohrab Ahmari - Iran’s Devastating Hubris - https://unherd.com/2025/06/irans-devastating-hubris/  Analysis for Ynet by Raz Zimmt who is one of Israel’s leading experts on Iran, at INSS - https://www.ynetnews.com/opinions-analysis/article/rj6csjsqeg  Richard Nephew: Can Israel Destroy Iran’s Nuclear Program? Foreign Affairs - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/can-israel-destroy-iran-nuclear-program  An initiative by 21 Iranian and Israeli scholars, writers and artists calling for a ceasefire - https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1DmH16adeqbmc3FO1596QVYf0PnVYfr_TDG2pc2njobk/edit  Israel-Iran War: 10 Dead, Around 200 Injured In Iranian Strikes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKsJQW4uWxY  Will The U.S. Deal Iran its Final Blow - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000713035101 Explainer: what we know so far in the Israel-Iran conflict - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/16/israel-iran-conflict-what-we-know-so-far-explainer   Markets are shrugging off the Israel-Iran conflict. Some strategists warn of complacency - https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/16/markets-could-be-underpricing-risks-of-israel-iran-conflict.html  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Overnight, Israel attacked several of Iran’s nuclear sites and killed the Islamic Republic’s top military leaders, as well as assassinating the Supreme Leader’s key advisor on nuclear issues, Ali Shamkhani. This comes two days before the US and Iran were supposed to resume direct talks on finding a diplomatic agreement to curb Iran’s nuclear programme, which Shamkhani had publicly supported. Jane Kinninmont and Jason discuss why has war come now, in the middle of Trump and Witkoff’s diplomacy? Jason explains: it is likely because surprise and going on the offensive are more beneficial now than they have been in the last century. The duo break down the big picture implications of how the recent Ukrainian strikes on Russian nuclear planes and the ongoing Israeli strikes on Iran showcase how warfare has just rapidly changed from a period which favours static and prepared defense (the Cold War and Post-Cold War periods) to a period (The Enduring Disorder) in which warfare has changed to favours creative and imaginative offense. Our current military technology and intel (esp AI) will promote more instability and favour aggression over defense. Also the key thing to keep in mind is that the Israelis had prepared this attack for years and had actually delayed it and felt they needed to get it done before it was too late. Jason also predicts Iranians will have to asymmetrically retaliate... could be against US or Sunni Gulfi targets in the region (refineries/embassies) or Jewish/Israeli targets in Europe/the Globe. In short, we are entering a new phase of the Wars of Disorder. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: For the NYT’s coverage of kinetic developments and Overviews: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/06/12/world/israel-iran-us-nuclear  For an excellent audio overview of what sites were attacked and why now-- Emergency Episode: ISRAEL AT WAR WITH IRAN - With Ronen Bergman: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000712721731 This attack has been long prepared: CIA analyst who leaked Israeli military plans gets three years in prison - The Washington Post https://apple.news/ABFn0haZjROuV8HqU_Ezsug Why can’t we just have global order, and civility on the Tube: https://www.ft.com/content/cfb73bfe-fb42-4fd1-8b73-a125fd35e1a0?accessToken=zwAGN3LKTcoYkdPPtzv--0JP0dOLc6El_TXhoA.MEQCIG07rU5VCnoJ70yjPQ85Yr2K3YVq65g_R1jNE0NXa1dyAiBuosNEkyWwxJu499tazJwRojNLWZgq9iJmfvfLfBN5tQ&sharetype=gift&token=8dc84b36-5e95-4856-9c28-e6d884595132 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At different engagements throughout the month, NATO allies will meet in Brussels and the Hague to discuss Ukraine and defense spending – with Trump’s team putting pressure on the Europeans to up their spending to 5% of GDP. But with the Americans wavering on the alliance as a whole, and these unrealistic spending targets: Can NATO survive? To find out, Arthur Snell speaks with Sten Rynning, professor and director of the Danish Institute for Advanced Study, University of Southern Denmark, and author of ‘NATO: From Cold War to Ukraine, a History of the World’s Most Powerful Alliance’.  The duo discuss the origins and evolution of NATO, the significance of Article 5, NATO’s complex relationship with France, and the challenges faced during the Afghanistan mission. Plus: the contentious issue of NATO's eastward expansion in the wake of the fall of the Soviet Union, and the Alliance's role in maintaining Order in the Post-War era. And as they conclude the discussion, they explore the future of European security architecture, the importance of America's role in NATO, and – to Order the Disorder – the need for a cohesive European defense strategy. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Get Sten Rynning’s book, NATO: From Cold War to Ukraine, a History of the World’s Most Powerful Alliance - https://www.londonreviewbookshop.co.uk/stock/nato-from-cold-war-to-ukraine-a-history-of-the-world-s-most-powerful-alliance-sten-rynning  Watch The Paradox of the Anti-Semitic Boulder attack - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7zAO_5CtfE  Listen to Arthur’s Behind The Lines Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell/id1704344656  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From Gaddafi’s Green Book, to Mao’s Little Red Book, to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, ideological autocrats have frequently spelled out in plain sight their perverse world views and long-term plans to confront their adversaries and upend global order. Rather than engaging in deep study of the thoughts of Qadhafi, Saddam, the Ayatollahs, or Mao, our leaders have traditionally not taken the statements of our ideological adversaries seriously enough. From Obama, to Biden, and even Trump – leaders in the West have long misunderstood what drives Putin’s Russia. They have wondered about Putin’s hidden agendas and secret plans, rather than reading his published ones. Putin essentially told us he was going to invade Ukraine in his writings and statements. How is it then, that major leaders throughout the West could be caught off-guard and surprised when he did? There is actually a manifesto of the Russian deep state’s ideology – a collection of books called Project Russia. And yet almost no one has heard of it and it is not yet translated into English. It might be the clearest indicator of Putin’s ultimate goals. To find out more, Jason is joined by Dave Troy, an investigative journalist covering the intersection of technology and democracy. He is currently the publisher and editor of America 2.0, a news site focused on the future of democracy. Dave also hosts the podcast Dave Troy Presents. Jason and David discuss the continuity of Russian intelligence networks from the Soviet era to the present and the incompatibility of oligarchs and democracy. Plus: they unpack 'Project Russia'-- an ideological framework that outlines strategies for undermining Western democracy, the concept of Russian Cosmism, how these ideas intersect with Silicon Valley futurism, and are shaping the West in unexpected ways. Finally, as they Order the Disorder, David suggests a new coalition of democracies united behind promoting Order and confronting the Deliberate Disorders. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Watch Does Germany need to embrace Nationalism? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIwVwI7mP5E Watch Will German defence spending make Trump happy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVwZsukFK9g Basic stuff on Project Russia and its origins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Institute_for_Strategic_Studies Visit America 2 News - https://america2.news David’s Writing in the Washington Spectator https://washingtonspectator.org/category/wide-angle/ David Troy’s Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dave-troy-presents/id1610914569 Clarence Streit - Union Now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Now https://dn790008.ca.archive.org/0/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.262135/2015.262135.Union-Now.pdf Marlene Laruelle - Russian Nationalism: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/oa-mono/10.4324/9780429426773/russian-nationalism-marlene-laruelle Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With Friedrich Merz officially at the helm, Germany is entering a new era. But with the AfD breathing down his neck – the country is actually more internally Disordered than outsiders may realise. We ask: could the answer be a new – inclusive – brand of nationalism?To find out, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Will Wilkes: Bloomberg News correspondent in Germany and co-author of ‘Broken Republik: The Inside Story of Germany's Descent into Crisis’. The pair discuss the current state of Germany, discussing how Germany's historical context – not just WWII but also the impact of the financial crisis and the refugee influx – has shaped its present situation. Plus: Germany's role in European security and the challenges posed by the rise of the far-right party, AFD.And as Jane and Will Order the Disorder – they discuss how to create a cohesive German national identity – could it be fostering unity by creating new community celebrations? Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Check out our recent YouTube ‘The DC Jewish Museum shooting: The Disorderly illogic of it’ - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BaWtQ5bH-Q&t=2s  Show Notes Links: Broken Republik (English edition): https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/broken-republik-9781526679161/  Totally Kaputt (German edition): https://www.piper.de/buecher/totally-kaputt-isbn-978-3-492-07328-8  Friedrich Merz is no unifier – he may deepen Germany’s divides (The Guardian): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/05/germany-unifier-chancellor-divide-friedrich-merz  Germany’s identity crisis is 80 years in the making (Bloomberg):  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-10/germany-s-political-center-challenged-by-afd-russia-china-and-trump?sref=ttOZ5TVM Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Disorder is a show where we look for historical parallels to better understand our current age of Global Enduring Disorder… It is also a show where once and a while we stumble across novel and yet explanatory parallels like the idea that the problems of Weimar Germany have gone global and sometimes we even get to interview world famous scholars who have come up with these novel parallels and have brilliantly extracted useful kernels about the interconnectivity of different crises, especially as pertains to institutional weakness, deliberate disorderers, and the rise of populist would-be strong men. Today, Jason Pack is joined by Robert Kaplan: a New York Times bestselling author whose famous books Balkan Ghosts, the Coming Anarchy, the Arabists, and The Revenge of Geography have been extremely influential in developing the concept of the Enduring Disorder. As part of our partnership with the New Books Network, we discuss his latest book, Waste Land: A World in Permanent Crisis. Robert and Jason discuss the rise of populism, the impact of globalization, and the decline of institutions and leadership. Plus: the significance of constitutional monarchy and the current decline of the major global powers. And as they Order the Disorder – they look at how the failure of the neo-populists will hopefully lead to more trust in experts, and how the Weimar republic can teach us lessons. Quote of the episode ‘The more abject the disorder, often the more extreme the tyranny to follow, and that brings us to Weimar’s last chapter’ Producer: George McDonagh Disorder is also now part of the Evergreen Network! For more visit https://evergreenpodcasts.com/disorder Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links: For more on the New Books Network visit https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder  For more on Robert visit https://robertdkaplan.com/  Get Robert’s book, Waste Land: A World in Permanent Crisis https://www.amazon.com/Waste-Land-World-Permanent-Crisis-ebook/dp/B0D2W1B519/  Listen to Ep3. The Rise of the Neo-Populists https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/0c55bf63f1175d94d6a508eb72e8a84f  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

To best Order the Disorder, we love hosting live shows with our partners at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) and showcasing the great range of talent that they have on staff. Jane and Jason were joined for a live recording on May 14 by TOM KEATINGE, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRE FOR FINANCE AND SECURITY AT RUSI. The trio started off tackling Sanctions: the role and use of Western Sanctions before Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022; how the use of sanctions has changed since Russia’s full-scale invasion, particularly on this side of the Atlantic; what does this mean for the rest of the world; and how this expansive use of sanctions is reordering global finance.  And then moved on to the question of Markets…. and how they hold governments to account. Jason genuinely believes that the markets may be our last hope to save American democracy and that they can do what the supreme court and congress are supposed to do but cannot.  Finally, we couldn’t discuss finance and security without mentioning the Donald’s favourite word in the English language that word that he seems not to realize comes directly from Arabic, *Tariffs*.  We tried to unpack what really are tarriffs; how we know they didn’t work with Smoot Hawley; what does Donald Trump think tarriffs are. The main take away of the discussion overall was: The failure of economic tools of coercion such as sanctions and tariffs to achieve their stated aims and the power of 'markets' to reassert order.  It was a well attended live show with over 75 guests in RUSI’s beautiful library… pls come join us for the next one in the Autumn. And more importantly right now! Pls pls join our paid for substack to hear all the beautiful listener questions! Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work and to listen to the listener questions which are cut from this free episode - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links:  We are trying to grow our YouTube channel. Pls check out this rather racy video and subscribe to the channel, Is Gary Lineker an Anti-Semite? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdi4vVGyCkM  Relevant RUSI sanctions work can be found here: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/projects/sanctions-and-illicit-finance-monitoring-and-analysis-network-sifmanet  A recent article challenging the Russia maritime sanctions status quo can be found here: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/tapped-out-it-time-revisit-oil-sanctions-russia  A recent article arguing for action on the Russian central bank assets can be found here: https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-central-bank-assets-ukraine/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices