In this episode of Curiosity Entangled, philosopher Bernardo Kastrup and neuroscientist Christof Koch meet for a rare and wide-ranging dialogue on consciousness, physics, and the limits of materialism. What begins as an exchange between two leading proponents of Integrated Information Theory (IIT) unfolds into a profound exploration of what consciousness is, how it might arise, and whether it could extend beyond biology into machines and even quantum systems.

Christof traces his decades of work with Francis Crick and at the Allen Institute, developing tools to detect signs of consciousness in unresponsive patients. Bernardo describes his dual life as a computer engineer and philosopher of mind, bridging the technical and the metaphysical in search of a unified account of reality. Together, they probe whether artificial intelligence systems like ChatGPT merely mimic human awareness or could one day become truly conscious. Their conversation ranges from quantum entanglement and the ontology of information to the metaphysical implications of Integrated Information Theory.

At the heart of the discussion lies a shared question: can a theory of consciousness also illuminate the nature of the physical world? The pair discuss the idea of “ontological dust,” the possibility that quantum computers might possess a faint glimmer of experience, and how mystical or non-dual experiences challenge the boundaries of physicalism. They also touch briefly on anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff’s theory of orchestrated objective reduction, which suggests that consciousness arises from quantum effects in microtubules, and debate its compatibility with IIT.

Through these exchanges, Bernardo and Christof circle around an audacious idea that mind and matter may not be two distinct domains but two perspectives on a single informational reality.

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5 Questions This Episode Might Leave You With

1. Can consciousness arise from non-biological systems—or is it unique to life?

2. What connects Integrated Information Theory and quantum information theory?

3. Are “things” in the world truly distinct, or are they convenient fictions of perception?

4. Could future technologies enable minds to merge or expand through physical connection?

5. If consciousness is intrinsic to the universe, what does that mean for science itself?

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Learn More About the Guests

Bernardo Kastrup

Philosopher & Computer Engineer | Executive Director, Essentia Foundation

Author, The Idea of the World; Analytic Idealism

https://bernardokastrup.com

Christof Koch

Neuroscientist & Meritorious Investigator, Allen Institute for Brain Science

Co-developer of Integrated Information Theory

Former Chief Scientist & President, Allen Institute

https://christofkoch.com

https://alleninstitute.org

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Timestamps

00:00:27 – Introductions: From neuroscience to philosophy and AI

00:05:12 – Integrated Information Theory and the illusion of AI consciousness

00:08:45 – Quantum computers, entanglement, and the possibility of artificial feeling

00:10:00 – Beyond Physicalism: Consciousness, physics, and metaphysical challenges

00:15:40 – Information as the bridge between mind and matter

00:19:00 – Split-brain experiments and instantaneous shifts in consciousness00:27:00 – Are objects real, or conceptual conveniences?00:33:00 – Why panpsychism isn’t enough

00:38:30 – Particles as ripples, not things: rethinking matter

00:45:00 – The power and peril of scientific “convenient fictions”

00:49:00 – Experimenting with shared consciousness and Neuralink interfaces

00:53:00 – Consciousness in the cosmos and possible ways to detect it

00:56:00 – Dissociative identity, unconscious knowledge, and the multiplicity of mind

01:02:00 – Closing reflections on mind, matter, and mystery

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