Nick LeRoy, Enterprise SEO Consultant and author of *SEO For Lunch*, joins Ross Hudgens to debate a hot topic in SEO right now — the rise of “Best X” listicles and the emergence of what Nick calls **LLM PBNs**. They unpack the ethics, brand risk, and strategic value of publishing your own “best” lists to capture AI-era visibility and how tactics once considered gray hat are being re-examined in the age of ChatGPT and AI Overviews. If you’ve ever wondered whether to publish your own “Best X” article (or what happens when you do), this episode dives deep into the data, the risk, and the real takeaways for modern SEO strategy. **Plus:** brand perception vs. performance marketing, AI training data, the ethics of self-ranking, and why most “shortcuts” aren’t worth it in 2025. Show Notes 0:08 – Why Nick wrote his post on LLM PBNs and “Best X” articles 1:00 – Defining the three types of listicles: self-hosted, third-party, and PBNs 3:23 – Why AI and search are blurring ethical lines for content manipulation 5:00 – The real risk: brand perception and user trust over rankings 8:01 – Do “Best X” articles actually drive qualified leads? 10:09 – Why these listicles still work tactically in B2B SEO 12:12 – How to do it right: objectivity, transparency, and editorial value 14:01 – The importance of segmenting by use case (“best for enterprise,” etc.) 16:15 – Outbound links, nofollow abuse, and why honesty still wins 17:36 – When to avoid listicles entirely (and why product quality matters most) 20:24 – LLM PBNs vs. traditional PBNs — and why they’re not worth it 23:22 – Affiliate influence and how AI learns from “best of” lists 25:33 – Why bad products can’t rank long term (no matter the tactics) 27:26 – Testing ethically: what Nick learned from black-hat experiments 30:48 – The SMB risk: how FOMO and “easy buttons” hurt small businesses 33:19 – Better investments for local brands than AI visibility schemes 35:20 – Why starting from scratch is tougher than ever in SEO 37:07 – The future of niche review sites like Zyppy and why they matter 38:30 – Final takeaway: research deeply and focus on long-term trust Show Links Nick LeRoy on LinkedIn: [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickleroy/] SEO For Lunch Newsletter: [https://www.seoforlunch.com/] Nick’s post on LLM PBNs: [https://www.seoforlunch.com/p/llm-pbns] Zyppy (by Cyrus Shepard): [https://zyppy.com/] Siege Media Enterprise SEO Consulting: [https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/enterprise-seo-consultants] Siege Media Best Fintech Marketing Agencies: [https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/best-fintech-marketing-agencies] Mentimeter Kahoot Alternatives Example: [https://www.mentimeter.com/blog/education/kahoot-alternatives]