As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
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As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
“The Human Journey From Ape to Agriculture” with Professor Peter Bellwood
Bridging the Gaps: A Portal for Curious Minds
57 minutes 54 seconds
4 months ago
“The Human Journey From Ape to Agriculture” with Professor Peter Bellwood
Over a span of five million years, humankind rose from modest origins to become the planet’s most dominant species. Along the way, people changed a lot in how they looked, spoke, and lived. But how did all this happen? The variety we see in humans today is the result of evolution—which began shaping the Homo group about 2.5 million years ago—and migration, as humans moved into new places. In his book “The Five-Million-Year Odyssey: The Human Journey from Ape to Agriculture” Professor Peter Bellwood brings together research from archaeology, biology, anthropology, and language studies to tell the story of human history. He takes us from the earliest hominins in Africa, through the spread of humans across the continents, to the start of farming and rapid population growth. He introduces early human relatives like the australopithecines, Homo erectus, and Neanderthals, then focuses on the rise of Homo sapiens about 300,000 years ago and their journey into Eurasia, Australia, and the Americas. Bellwood also looks at how farming, which began around 10,000 years ago, helped people move to new lands and share their languages and cultures. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I talk with Professor Peter Bellwood.
Peter Bellwood is professor emeritus at the Australian National University. He specialises in the human population prehistory from archaeological, linguistic and biological perspectives. His many books include “First Migrants: Ancient Migration in Global Perspective” and “First Farmers: The Origins of Agricultural Societies. He is the winner of the 2021 International Cosmos Prize.
We begin by discussing how studying languages uncovers our past and tells the story of humans. Language families act like maps, pointing to early journeys of people. Shared words that appear in many tongues offer strong clues about those first moves. Next we look at what ancient DNA and proteins can say about our past. I first ask about the hard job of finding and testing old genetic samples. After that we turn to classic archaeology, and I ask Peter about digging at historic sites. We dive into how a creature unlike any other animal arose, and we touch upon the blank spots that still puzzle us. The book’s idea of “man the tool maker” comes up: does making tools really set us apart? We talk about that in depth.
We then explore the rise and later disappearance of Neanderthals and other early human groups. Our focus shifts to the cultural growth of Homo sapiens, tracing the path from hunting and gathering to more organised farming. We look closely at the first waves of people who moved in search of richer soil and safer homes. The Fertile Crescent in the Middle East gets special attention, as we track the birth of stable villages and maybe the first cities. We also discuss the boats, paths, and simple gear that helped early travellers to travel long distances.
Shifting dates and fresh finds force us to keep revising the human timeline. We talk about lively cultures that either vanished overnight or slowly faded away. From start to end, the talk has been rich, clear, and full of insights.
Complement this discussion with “How Cooking Made Us Human with Professor Richard Wrangham” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2019/07/how-cooking-made-us-human-with-professor-richard-wrangham/
And then listen to ““From Sensing to Sentience: How Feeling Emerges from the Brain” with Professor Todd Feinberg” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/02/from-sensing-to-sentience-how-feeling-emerges-from-the-brain-with-professor-todd-feinberg/
Bridging the Gaps: A Portal for Curious Minds
As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
