As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
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As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
“Middle Tech: Software Work and the Culture of Good Enough” with Professor Paula Bialski
Bridging the Gaps: A Portal for Curious Minds
46 minutes 51 seconds
1 year ago
“Middle Tech: Software Work and the Culture of Good Enough” with Professor Paula Bialski
Contrary to the widespread belief that all technology is sleek, flawless, and cutting-edge, much of it isn’t designed to meet such high standards or be revolutionary. In many environments, the goal isn’t always to create perfect, futuristic products. Instead, the focus is often on functionality—producing tech that is good enough to meet immediate needs without striving for perfection. This mindset contrasts with the image of the tech world as a space of constant innovation, where every new development is expected to disrupt industries and change lives. Instead, in many cases, the aim is to simply keep things running smoothly, making sure the technology works well enough to get by, while knowing that it will likely be improved or replaced in the next version. In her book “Middle Tech: Software Work and the Culture of Good Enough” Professor Paula Bialski explores this idea through an ethnographic study of software developers working at a corporate tech company. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Professor Paula Bialski.
Paula Bialski is associate professor of digital sociology at the University of St. Gallen in St. Gallen, Switzerland.
We begin our discussion by exploring why Paula chose to conduct her study at a mid-sized software development company, rather than focusing on the world’s top tech firms with their sleek offices and cutting-edge facilities. This choice allowed her to investigate a more grounded and realistic aspect of the tech industry. From there, we dive into how she conducted her research—how she embedded herself with the developers and built rapport to understand their day-to-day work and culture.
A major focus of our conversation is the concept of "good enoughness" in corporate software development. Paula explains how this mindset shapes the way tech workers approach their tasks, balancing functionality and time constraints over perfection. I ask her if "good enough" can sometimes become a way to avoid striving for excellence, or even an excuse for sloppiness, which leads us to a broader conversation about how developers navigate this balance.
We also discuss the challenges software engineers face at work, such as dealing with outdated systems, tight deadlines, and corporate expectations, and how these challenges compare to those in other professions. We also touch upon the challenges they face in their personal space. Paula gives insight into how the fast-paced culture of the tech world, where professionals often move quickly from one job to the next, influences the work environment.
Finally, we briefly touch on Paula’s upcoming project, which will examine the impact of AI on software development—a topic that promises to provide new insights into how technology will continue to shape this field. It has been a fascinating conversation that sheds light on a side of the tech industry not often discussed.
Complement this discussion with ““The AI Playbook: Mastering the Rare Art of Machine Learning Deployment” with Eric Siegel” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2024/02/the-ai-playbook-mastering-the-rare-art-of-machine-learning-deployment-with-eric-siegel/
And then listen to ““Augmented Thinking: The New Convergence of Art, Technology, and Science with Professor Julio Ottino” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2022/06/augmented-thinking-convergence-of-art-technology-and-science-with-julio-ottino/
Bridging the Gaps: A Portal for Curious Minds
As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
