As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
All content for Bridging the Gaps: A Portal for Curious Minds is the property of Dr Waseem Akhtar and is served directly from their servers
with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.
As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
“How Our Grasp of the Universe and Our Minds Changed Everything” with Professor Linda Zagzebski
Bridging the Gaps: A Portal for Curious Minds
48 minutes 59 seconds
1 month ago
“How Our Grasp of the Universe and Our Minds Changed Everything” with Professor Linda Zagzebski
At the heart of the intellectual and cultural awakening that swept across the globe during the first millennium BCE—an era that witnessed the emergence of philosophy, mathematics, science, and nearly all of the world’s major religions—lies a transformative conviction: the human mind is capable of comprehending the universe. Equally profound is the parallel insight that the mind is capable of reflecting upon and understanding itself.
In her book “The Two Greatest Ideas: How Our Grasp of the Universe and Our Minds Changed Everything” Professor Linda Zagzebski offers a compelling examination of these two foundational ideas in human history. She traces how their dynamic interplay has generated enduring tensions, leaving humanity divided in its understanding of the relationship between consciousness and the cosmos. The book argues that these tensions have long shaped debates over how society should be organized—whether in harmony with the natural order or in pursuit of individual autonomy—and they continue to underlie conflicts on issues such as abortion, the environment, free speech, and identity. The book further envisions the rise of a third transformative idea: that human minds can genuinely understand one another, opening the possibility of grasping reality in its entirety. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Professor Linda Zagzebski.
Linda Zagzebski is Professor Emerita and the Kingfisher College Chair of the Philosophy of Religion and Ethics Emerita at the University of Oklahoma.
We begin our discussion by examining the two central ideas highlighted in Zagzebski’s book: first, that the human mind can grasp the universe, and second, that it can grasp itself. While these notions feel ever-present in contemporary thought, it is easy to forget that they emerged gradually in human history. We consider their significance and origins, tracing early expressions of these ideas in mathematics, astronomy, art, and philosophy. This includes reflections on ancient conceptions of a unified reality governed by a single principle, exemplified in Pythagorean thought, which envisioned the cosmos as bound together by number—a view that continues to echo in Western intellectual traditions. We discuss the discovery of subjectivity and its impact on art and science.
Our conversation then turns to Zagzebski’s proposal of a possible third great idea: that the human mind can grasp another mind. From there, we reflect on enduring questions: Can we ever fully understand the nature of reality? What drives the uniquely human impulse to seek knowledge of the whole? Finally, we delve into the book’s exploration of the concept of self and consider why our curiosity about reality sets us apart from other animals.Overall, this has been an illuminating and thought-provoking discussion.
Complement this discussion with “Robots, Artificial Life and Technology Imagined by the Ancients” with Adrienne Mayor available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2018/12/adrienne-mayor-bridging-the-gaps/And then listen to “The Human Journey From Ape to Agriculture” with Professor Peter Bellwood available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/06/the-human-journey-from-ape-to-agriculture-with-professor-peter-bellwood/
Bridging the Gaps: A Portal for Curious Minds
As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben.
Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.
I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.
We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.
Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.
Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.
Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/
And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at:
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/
