In the eighth episode of our second season, we welcome Shawn Ginwright—Jerome T. Murphy  Professor of Practice at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, author of the The Four Pivots, and President and CEO of Flourish Agenda. In our conversation, we reflected on being lovers of justice, the pull toward despair, and our dual mission to be well in the pursuit of change. Shawn reminds us to pause and find “delight” in the things, big and small, that give us joy—an essential practice for sustaining ourselves as we navigate the ebb and flow of creating inclusive organizations and a more just society. We also get real about transactional versus transformational change, and discuss  how honoring our own and others’ full humanity can help us make that shift.