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Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Legal Talk Network
427 episodes
1 day ago
Thinking Like A Lawyer is a podcast featuring Above the Law's Joe Patrice, Kathryn Rubino, and Chris Williams. Each episode, the hosts will take a topic experienced and enjoyed by regular people, and shine it through the prism of a legal framework. This will either reveal an awesome rainbow of thought, or a disorienting kaleidoscope of issues. Either way, it should be fun.
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All content for Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer is the property of Legal Talk Network and is served directly from their servers with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.
Thinking Like A Lawyer is a podcast featuring Above the Law's Joe Patrice, Kathryn Rubino, and Chris Williams. Each episode, the hosts will take a topic experienced and enjoyed by regular people, and shine it through the prism of a legal framework. This will either reveal an awesome rainbow of thought, or a disorienting kaleidoscope of issues. Either way, it should be fun.
Show more...
Business News
Business,
Careers,
News,
Politics
Episodes (20/427)
Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
The Sandwich Is Mightier Than The Sword
Law firms get some worrying numbers from last quarter. ----- The new D.C. folk hero who threw a sandwich at Trump's surge publicity stunt turned out to be a DOJ attorney. He's been fired because this administration will not stand for disrespecting law enforcement... unless they're trying to kill Capitol police officers on January 6. Meanwhile, the legal industry enjoyed a muted quarter. Are they preparing to batten down the hatches for a recession? Supreme Court begins moving the pieces into place to tear down Obergefell.
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1 day ago
33 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Missing: Biglaw's Summer Bonus Matches
Milbank delighted with special summer bonuses, ranging from $6-25 thousand, for associates. And that's great for them! But where are all the matches? We have a theory on when associates at other firms will be able to cash in. There was some fishiness (now resolved) with the constitution on congress's website. Which, honestly, should be more shocking than it is. Biglaw partner lateral moves are all the rage, with some major moves this summer. But not everyone is benefitting from the hotness of the lateral market -- all because of a little thing called due diligence.
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1 week ago
30 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
The Bar Exam Death Drive Becomes Dangerously Literal
And Coldplay and pierogis. ----- A woman went into cardiac arrest during the New York bar exam. Thankfully, the administrators responded swiftly. JUST KIDDING! They yelled at other examinees to be quiet and keep working on the test while they deliberated about calling for emergency assistance, according to multiple witnesses. The woman survived, but the bar exam's unwillingness to admit its mistakes expose the rotten incentives of this stupid, unnecessary test. The Coldplay jumbotron affair sparks litigation rumors... which might be the only idea worse than taking your affair to a concert. And Alan Dershowitz is very angry that no one will sell him a pierogi.
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2 weeks ago
30 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Lawyers Getting Really High On AI Hallucinations
Get it together, people! ----- It was a very bad week for lawyers and hallucinations. A federal judge had to withdraw an opinion with fake cites. One Biglaw firm fired a partner over an invented case, while another firm got tossed off a case over AI shenanigans. And the scribe of Ashurbanipal got mercilessly trolled by a judge pointing out that his fake AI cite apology included... another fake cite. Why does it seem like this is all getting worse? A Biglaw firm pushes its start date leaving incoming associates in the lurch and Alina Habba might be the U.S. Attorney for New Jersey. Or maybe not. Or maybe yes.
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3 weeks ago
32 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Who Knew Biting Other Lawyers Was Frowned Upon?
Lots to chew on this week. ----- Biglaw summer associate let go after biting upwards of 15 people at the firm. Now that sounds crazy, but that's because it is. We also discuss a lawyer's biting response to a demand letter. A lot of the professional decorum advocates objected to the tone, but at a certain point how does the profession pushback against aggressive and unfounded demands without public shaming? There's not another readily accessible disincentive. Finally, we address the gnashing of teeth in conservative media ecosphere over Superman being an immigrant and the knots they're willing to tie themselves into in order to avoid the obvious.
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1 month ago
38 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
The Hallucinations Are Winning
Law firm mergers and John Roberts brags for the crowd. ----- Has the era of the mid-sized firm come to an end? Probably not, but with increasing nationalization and the financial pressures that go along with it, mid-sized firms are consolidating and a valuable segment (and price point!) may be lost. Lawyers have faced a steady stream of sanctions for citing fake cases generated by AI, but now a judge officially blessed an order based on AI-hallucinated cases as a critical firewall in the war against machine slop is breached. While AI holds out promise for access to justice, the risk of a lawless free-for-all looms. Speaking of lawless free-for-alls, the Chief Justice explains that he doesn't care about substantive criticism of the Court because he has votes and the critics don't.
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1 month ago
42 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Supreme Court A Hot Mess
The Term ended with a whole lot of nonsense. ----- Taking a sledgehammer where a chisel -- or better yet nothing -- would do, the Supreme Court nixed injunctions it didn't like by striking down the power to issue universal injunctions totally and addressed schools teaching that gay people exist by expanding strict scrutiny to parents lodging religious complaints. But at least they whined and took swipes at each other over it! Meanwhile, Justice Sonia Sotomayor figured out that if the majority wants to hide their rulings, the dissent can characterize them on their own. Also, the University of Florida Law School gave a top prize to a paper advocating a Whites-Only Constitution. The professor? Trump-appointed federal judge. The school's effort to explain itself left a lot to be desired.
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1 month ago
40 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
You Catch More Judges With 'Honey' Than With Vinegar
And the Supreme Court has a wild one. ----- Except those judges aren't going to like it when you catch them. Like the poor lawyer here who called a judge "honey" during oral argument and entered a spiral of no return. We also had a dramatic week at the Supreme Court, with Justice Gorsuch trying to start something with Justice Jackson and Justice Jackson shutting it right down, and Sam Alito using his concurrence to complain that the transgender care ban is an act of discrimination... and the he wants the Court to be more proud of it. And Vault put out its law firm prestige rankings. Hopefully nothing went down immediately after their survey that radically changed how people perceive the firms!
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1 month ago
36 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
The Jerkstore Called, They're Not Running Out Of Lawyers
Also, the role of bar associations in 2025. ----- According to a new survey, lawyers think their law firms are really tolerant of jerks. Are they right about that, or just overly sensitive? The DC Bar election ended in a blowout, but why? For all the complaining about some wild theories on social media, the simpler reason is that leading a bar association in 2025 means standing up to the administration and Pam Bondi's brother never convinced the members that he'd be able to do that. In fact, the right-wing fear of strong bar associations has gotten so serious that the Florida supreme court actively kneecapped their state bar. And we talk about attending David Lat's Original Jurisdiction party, which you should also be reading.
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2 months ago
35 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
So Long And Thanks For All The Bonuses
Caving law firms experience exodus. ----- Paul Weiss fancied itself clever when it offered Trump pro bono payola in exchange for dropping an illegal executive order. Instead it keeps hemorrhaging senior lawyers with more departing to join the recent rainmaker spinoff and associates reportedly high on the new firm's wish list. While litigators are largely driving defections from surrender firms, at what point does a hollowed out litigation department start to impact the firm as a whole? Harvard Law Review found itself harassed by the government and it looks like the reason might be a snitch burrowed into the White House. And the one-track partnership model took more hits with Ropes & Gray and Debevoise agreeing to add non-equity tiers.
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2 months ago
35 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Sex Asteroids, Sleazebags, And Meme Police
Quite the combination of words. ----- Lawsuit against former Texas SG alleges bizarre cosmic sex fetish. The administration made two significant changes to the judicial nomination process, firing the ABA from its neutral evaluator role and kicking the Federalist Society to the curb. The latter move came with an epic rant declaring Leonard Leo a sleazebag. Broken clocks and all. And Kash Patel lays out the FBI's priorities and child predators and terrorists are now lower on the most wanted list than, "your neighbor who posted an 8647 joke."
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2 months ago
37 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Supreme Court Just Making It Up As It Goes Along
From the administrative state to voting rights, they're just sort of winging it trying to reverse engineer results. ----- As Supreme Court season hits fever pitch, we're joined by Professor Leah Litman, author of Lawless: How the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories, and Bad Vibes, to discuss the nightmare we're facing. Elena Kagan took the opportunity to humiliate her colleagues last week calling out an arbitrary carve out created to protect their investments. Kagan's frustration seems to be growing down the stretch, having just eviscerated the government in the birthright citizenship case. Meanwhile, Kristi Noem failed introductory constitutional law in front of the Senate, flailing as she tried to define habeas corpus.
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2 months ago
40 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Are Those Seashells In Your Pocket Or Are You Just Threatening An Assassination?
Seashellgate meets Surrendergate. ----- Since we're cursed to act as keepers of the flame to remind the legal community that several large law firms really did willingly sell out to the Trump administration, this week we discuss our columnist Vivia Chen's exploration of the unique impact of these moves on young lawyers learning early that Biglaw is more than happy to throw them under the bus. We also discuss how James Comey's Instagram pic triggered a tragicomic meltdown of some of the most deranged people on the internet ranting about seashells as a subliminal assassination threat worthy of John Wilkes Squarepants. Unfortunately, some of those internet denizens are also running federal law enforcement. And we conduct a lightning round of quirky Am Law 100 financial facts that will make you appreciate that you took some time off last year.
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3 months ago
41 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Bold Strategy Biglaw, Let's See If It Pays Off
What if we just act like nothing happened? ----- Biglaw firms who gave in to Trump suffered a scathing 60 Minutes piece and key talent defections, so they've decided upon a new tactic: pretending they never made a deal at all! It does not appear to be working. Meanwhile, Justice David Souter died reminding everyone of an era when the federal judiciary cared more about the right answer than appeasing political patrons. Unfortunately, Souter's nomination inadvertently triggered that change. And we have a Biglaw merging in the offing that hopes to create a new $2B firm.
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3 months ago
35 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Biglaw Firms Fighting Trump Keep Winning, Capitulators Keep Losing
It was a bad week to compromise your values. ----- Perkins Coie secured a permanent injunction against the Trump administration's retaliatory executive order. Meanwhile, firms that balked at putting up a fight against the illegal attacks have seen the White House drag them into police brutality cases and law schools start openly talking about students taking their talents elsewhere. And then the harshest cut of all -- a deep pocketed client bailed on a collaborator firm to give business to a firm standing up to Trump. Who could've predicted except anyone who ever watched Star Wars. Also we talk about California's latest bar exam debacle and the White House's threat against Amal Clooney.
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3 months ago
33 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Even Judges Aren't Safe In Trump's America
The arrest of Wisconsin judge Hannah Dugan is straight outta dystopian fiction. But at least retired Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer still has faith in the system, which makes one of us. Speaking of the High Court, Justice Sam Alito's dissent would be laughable if he weren't so powerful.
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3 months ago
29 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Biglaw Brings In Big Bucks
And the world continues to melt. ----- We've got key financial data from the top law firms and the takeaway is that it's good to be a big firm. The Am Law 100 this year revealed that more and more firms have joined the super rich and things look bright for Biglaw. Unless someone triggers a global depression or something. We also discuss what it means to be "bipartisan" in an environment where the intellectual stars of the conservative legal movement are ALSO lining up to call out the Trump administration as a threat to the rule of law. Finally, we flag a troubling law school story about scholarships getting cut when admissions gets blindsided by applications.
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4 months ago
34 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Law School Ranking Chaos And Biglaw Trump Deals Turn Sour
US News and World Report released its most recent law school rankings with a side of chaos, but the big takeaway is the scrambling and erosion of the "T14" as an organizing concept. Is it time to dismiss the rankings as arbitrary? At least until law schools agree to cooperate again. Also, Surrendergate continues and the "we'll do some pro bono for veterans" deal has turned dramatically, with the White House now claiming the authority to "assign" Biglaw firms to work on administration projects. Sound familiar? Along the way, firms are starting to lose senior lawyers fulfilling critical firm roles while the most recent defectors alienate the overwhelming majority of their team. Finally, the Supreme Court has issued some unanimous rebukes in defense of due process and the administration does not seem to care.
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4 months ago
39 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Biglaw Surrender Fallout Continues
And now we have a tracker for that! ----- After a few weeks of watching some law firms stand up to facially illegal demands from the Trump administration... and more law firms rapidly cave to those same demands, we put together a helpful tracker to keep clients, potential laterals, and law students fully aware of where firms currently stand. But we depend on you out there to keep us up-to-date! Meanwhile, more associates have taken a stand against their surrendering firms and some law students have already told the firm recruiting events that they aren't interested in firms that can't stand up for themselves. Also the February bar exam numbers were terrible.
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4 months ago
32 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Fight Or Flight... The Biglaw Conundrum
A great divide is developing. ----- Following the Paul Weiss surrender we discussed last week, Skadden preemptively followed suit agreeing to commit $100M in pro bono payola to the MAGA cause. Bringing to light some embarrassing email policies in the process. But other Biglaw firms showed a little more life, with Jenner & Block and WilmerHale suing the administration over its retaliatory executive orders. And a major firm announced an end to on-campus recruiting, which seems like a bad policy for both students and the firm.  
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4 months ago
33 minutes

Above the Law - Thinking Like a Lawyer
Thinking Like A Lawyer is a podcast featuring Above the Law's Joe Patrice, Kathryn Rubino, and Chris Williams. Each episode, the hosts will take a topic experienced and enjoyed by regular people, and shine it through the prism of a legal framework. This will either reveal an awesome rainbow of thought, or a disorienting kaleidoscope of issues. Either way, it should be fun.