This rich dialog treats the evolution of activism beyond us-versus-them thinking, with special reference to current events around race, the indigenous, and the Amazon rainforest. Alnoor Ladha’s work focuses on the intersection of political organizing, systems thinking and narrative work. He was the co-founder and Executive Director of The Rules (TR), a global network of activists, organizers, designers, coders, researchers, writers and others focused on changing the rules that create inequality, poverty and climate change. Currently, he is active with Cura Da Terra (#CuraDaTerra), a campaign of and for the indigenous of the Amazon in their role as healers of the earth. Alnoor comes from a Sufi lineage and explores/writes about the intersection between politics and spirituality in times of crisis. The Rules: https://therules.org/